NEW Digital Cinema Camera - Operational and showing at NAB

Thomas Smet · April 18th, 2006, 10:05 AM

Who would even want a F950 anymore?

While the F950 may have a few video camera type things that make it a better camera when it comes to workflow and storage and price this camera really does blow it away.

HDCAM SR and uncompressed are a bear to deal with while Cineform is not only small enough to fit on single hard drives but is easier on the cpu than mpeg2 based formats. While uncompressed RGB may be slightly better than Cineform RAW it is much much closer than HDV or DVCPRO HD would ever be.

My only concern at this point would be color in low light and just low light performance is general. It is after all a single chip camera. I know single chips can be great for film production where you have lots of light but what if you don't have lots of light?

I can really see other people using this camera for live HDTV work since it can record up to 4 hours. It would be much higher quality than HDV but not nearly as expensive as HDCAM SR. I happen to know a few guys who do just weddings that are planning on getting the SONY 350 in a few months. If they are willing to spend that much on a camera to get slightly better than HDV quality at 1/2" then why not go 2/3" with this great camera?

How well would the camera work in a live situation?

Steve Nordhauser · April 18th, 2006, 10:45 AM

Just to be clear since there was some confusion in a Tom's Hardware article, the battery life is something like 1-1.5Hrs per battery. The disk storage is 4 hours per drive.
Regards,
Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Who would even want a F950 anymore?
...snip....
I can really see other people using this camera for live HDTV work since it can record up to 4 hours. It would be much higher quality than HDV but not nearly as expensive as HDCAM SR. I happen to know a few guys who do just weddings that are planning on getting the SONY 350 in a few months. If they are willing to spend that much on a camera to get slightly better than HDV quality at 1/2" then why not go 2/3" with this great camera?

How well would the camera work in a live situation?

Glenn Gipson · April 18th, 2006, 11:47 AM

Not to start up a hardware war, or anything, but this cam is much more realistic for a 20k price tag than the RED camera. I know a lot of people are hoping that RED is going to come in at 20k, but I just don't see it. This is definately going to hit the "sweet spot" for indie filmmakers.

Rob Lohman · April 18th, 2006, 12:02 PM

Hi Steve & David, that's some good news!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Nordhauser

Yes. The pricing for a camera head system, which includes the SI-1920HD-GE camera head, a copy of Prospect HD Edit, Premiere Pro 2.0, a Arri-base-plate adapter, and two Fujinon c-mount lenses will retail for $12,500.

Just hypothetical, but what if someone already has Premiere Pro 2.0 and c-mount
lenses for example?

Mathieu Ghekiere · April 18th, 2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Gipson

Not to start up a hardware war, or anything, but this cam is much more realistic for a 20k price tag than the RED camera. I know a lot of people are hoping that RED is going to come in at 20k, but I just don't see it. This is definately going to hit the "sweet spot" for indie filmmakers.

We'll know after NAB :-D

Joe Carney · April 18th, 2006, 01:15 PM

under the dept 'this sounds really cool but...'
What dispaly technology is out there that will let us preview 10bit video during the editing process? I know ATI and nVidia have 10bit ramdac chips but this sounds like you will need a high end sdi capable CRT to get full color and contrast.
Should that be figured into the cost?

Joel Aaron · April 18th, 2006, 01:37 PM

Wow - this does look pretty promising. If the noise can be smoothed out a bit more it would be great. The DOF at at 1.4 looks pretty good to me. This is worth keeping a close eye on and might even inspire Redto to drop their pricing a little if needed.

David Newman · April 18th, 2006, 01:45 PM

Joe, AJA Xena LH or LHe is the way to go for monitoring. However a 10-bit display as you describe is not necessary. Remember 10-bit adds levels between the 8-bit levels, designed for color correction without contouring.

Ram Ganesh · April 18th, 2006, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Lohman

Hi Steve & David, that's some good news!

Just hypothetical, but what if someone already has Premiere Pro 2.0 and c-mount
lenses for example?

I'd like to know as well - that was just what I was thinking...
PPro is around $850..

also did they say which C-mount lenses are free?

Edited to remove pricing subtractions :)

David Newman · April 18th, 2006, 04:27 PM

Pricing speculation like this should not be put on the forum when you can simply ask Silicon Imaging. Doing subtractions of retail prices makes no sense.

Forrest Schultz · April 18th, 2006, 10:00 PM

Ram Ganesh just got OWNED by David Newman! no, im just kidding. it's pretty funny though.

Paul Curtis · April 19th, 2006, 03:47 AM

Im impressed, this is the approach i would take if i found myself designing a camera. On paper it looks very exciting.

Price is good too, $20k plus another $10k worth of lenses and bits i would imagine.

I wonder how robust the camera is on location... physical dimensions, weights etc would be useful.

David, the cineform RAW codec states 10bit but i can't find anywhere whether that's 10bit log or linear? Obviously i hope it's log... If the head does 12bit then log would be the best way to capture that? I'd hate to loose those 2 bits by having to determine at the capture stage what i needed - to have the dSLR raw workflow for film is perfect for me.

The sample images/movies really aren't that good though, if i was SI i would consider pulling the footage or getting better full res stills before showing the world. It would also be worth stating what lenses were used as they would be the determining factor with quality and DOF.

I assume that up to 70fps is only 720p, how fast can 1080p go, just to 30?

One other area not discussed yet is timelines, i would love to get a ballpark as to when the system could be demo'd/purchased.

Sadly no NAB for me this year, so i will have to virtually visit via the internet.

cheers, paul

Kyle Granger · April 19th, 2006, 05:18 AM

Hi Paul,

I work with David, Steve, and Jason, and know a bit about the camera.

The 10-bit Cineform signal is log, standard dynamic range or wide dynamic range (both log curves). With the black pedestal settings, you are getting the *absolute* best 10-bits from the 12-bit sensor

30 fps should be 1080p.

cheers,

Kyle

Steve Nordhauser · April 19th, 2006, 05:21 AM

Paul,
A lot of good questions there. We run the sensor acquisition at 12 bit linear and the Cineform codec is 10 bit log.

The physical dimensions and weight are on the spec sheet at our web site:
12"x4"x8" and 13lbs.

We decided to wait on photos of the camera until after NAB to stir things up a bit. We put up what footage we had to convince people that this is a real camera. There will be much more very soon. We are taking part in the CML party to get some pro footage and more feedback on the camera. There are also a few early units going to filmmakers. They will be posting some dailies on our support forum at the web site.

1080p at up to 30fps, 720p at up to 72fps. We run the 1080p at 2x the rate in the camera head and drop every other frame. This cuts any rolling shutter artifacts in half while keeping the bandwidth low.

Full production is Q3 2006. This is mainly a sensor availability issue.
Regards,
Steve

Kyle Granger · April 19th, 2006, 05:39 AM

like Steve said.... ;-)

> We run the 1080p at 2x the rate in the camera head and drop every other frame. This cuts any rolling shutter artifacts in half while keeping the bandwidth

Plus additional vertical blanking, higher pixel clock, further reducing any rolling shutter Useful for 24p.

April 18th, 2006, 01:15 PM	#21
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	under the dept 'this sounds really cool but...' What dispaly technology is out there that will let us preview 10bit video during the editing process? I know ATI and nVidia have 10bit ramdac chips but this sounds like you will need a high end sdi capable CRT to get full color and contrast. Should that be figured into the cost? __________________ Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!

April 18th, 2006, 01:45 PM	#23
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Joe, AJA Xena LH or LHe is the way to go for monitoring. However a 10-bit display as you describe is not necessary. Remember 10-bit adds levels between the 8-bit levels, designed for color correction without contouring. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 18th, 2006, 04:27 PM	#25
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Pricing speculation like this should not be put on the forum when you can simply ask Silicon Imaging. Doing subtractions of retail prices makes no sense. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 19th, 2006, 05:21 AM	#29
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Paul, A lot of good questions there. We run the sensor acquisition at 12 bit linear and the Cineform codec is 10 bit log. The physical dimensions and weight are on the spec sheet at our web site: 12"x4"x8" and 13lbs. We decided to wait on photos of the camera until after NAB to stir things up a bit. We put up what footage we had to convince people that this is a real camera. There will be much more very soon. We are taking part in the CML party to get some pro footage and more feedback on the camera. There are also a few early units going to filmmakers. They will be posting some dailies on our support forum at the web site. 1080p at up to 30fps, 720p at up to 72fps. We run the 1080p at 2x the rate in the camera head and drop every other frame. This cuts any rolling shutter artifacts in half while keeping the bandwidth low. Full production is Q3 2006. This is mainly a sensor availability issue. Regards, Steve __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

April 18th, 2006, 10:05 AM	#16
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Who would even want a F950 anymore? While the F950 may have a few video camera type things that make it a better camera when it comes to workflow and storage and price this camera really does blow it away. HDCAM SR and uncompressed are a bear to deal with while Cineform is not only small enough to fit on single hard drives but is easier on the cpu than mpeg2 based formats. While uncompressed RGB may be slightly better than Cineform RAW it is much much closer than HDV or DVCPRO HD would ever be. My only concern at this point would be color in low light and just low light performance is general. It is after all a single chip camera. I know single chips can be great for film production where you have lots of light but what if you don't have lots of light? I can really see other people using this camera for live HDTV work since it can record up to 4 hours. It would be much higher quality than HDV but not nearly as expensive as HDCAM SR. I happen to know a few guys who do just weddings that are planning on getting the SONY 350 in a few months. If they are willing to spend that much on a camera to get slightly better than HDV quality at 1/2" then why not go 2/3" with this great camera? How well would the camera work in a live situation?

April 18th, 2006, 11:47 AM	#18
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	Not to start up a hardware war, or anything, but this cam is much more realistic for a 20k price tag than the RED camera. I know a lot of people are hoping that RED is going to come in at 20k, but I just don't see it. This is definately going to hit the "sweet spot" for indie filmmakers.

April 18th, 2006, 01:37 PM	#22
Joel Aaron Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ - USA Posts: 300	Wow - this does look pretty promising. If the noise can be smoothed out a bit more it would be great. The DOF at at 1.4 looks pretty good to me. This is worth keeping a close eye on and might even inspire Redto to drop their pricing a little if needed.

April 18th, 2006, 10:00 PM	#26
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	Ram Ganesh just got OWNED by David Newman! no, im just kidding. it's pretty funny though.

April 19th, 2006, 03:47 AM	#27
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	Im impressed, this is the approach i would take if i found myself designing a camera. On paper it looks very exciting. Price is good too, $20k plus another $10k worth of lenses and bits i would imagine. I wonder how robust the camera is on location... physical dimensions, weights etc would be useful. David, the cineform RAW codec states 10bit but i can't find anywhere whether that's 10bit log or linear? Obviously i hope it's log... If the head does 12bit then log would be the best way to capture that? I'd hate to loose those 2 bits by having to determine at the capture stage what i needed - to have the dSLR raw workflow for film is perfect for me. The sample images/movies really aren't that good though, if i was SI i would consider pulling the footage or getting better full res stills before showing the world. It would also be worth stating what lenses were used as they would be the determining factor with quality and DOF. I assume that up to 70fps is only 720p, how fast can 1080p go, just to 30? One other area not discussed yet is timelines, i would love to get a ballpark as to when the system could be demo'd/purchased. Sadly no NAB for me this year, so i will have to virtually visit via the internet. cheers, paul

April 19th, 2006, 05:18 AM	#28
Kyle Granger Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: . Posts: 52	Hi Paul, I work with David, Steve, and Jason, and know a bit about the camera. The 10-bit Cineform signal is log, standard dynamic range or wide dynamic range (both log curves). With the black pedestal settings, you are getting the absolute best 10-bits from the 12-bit sensor 30 fps should be 1080p. cheers, Kyle

April 19th, 2006, 05:39 AM	#30
Kyle Granger Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: . Posts: 52	like Steve said.... ;-) > We run the 1080p at 2x the rate in the camera head and drop every other frame. This cuts any rolling shutter artifacts in half while keeping the bandwidth Plus additional vertical blanking, higher pixel clock, further reducing any rolling shutter Useful for 24p.