The best way to edit natively -- CineForm RAW in the camera.

Mathieu Kassovitz · June 10th, 2006, 12:34 AM

Who will buy this configuration:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=68113

. . . will already have a solution to post?

Full online editing (native & final resolution) allowing color correcting and grading tools?

Without any other software and/or hardware needs?

David Newman · June 10th, 2006, 09:35 AM

Not clear what you questions are. The SI camera work very tightly with Prospect HD Edit -- which cames bundled with the camera. PHD Edit enables Adobe products - AE, PPro - to operate seamlessly with CineForm RAW; enabling you use any color correctly or gradient tools you like that plug in to these applications. Prospect HD also comes with RT color correction.

Mathieu Kassovitz · June 10th, 2006, 11:42 AM

Merci

My first question is if when we are buying a laptop for the cam capture if this hardware is enough for editing work with the software bundled with the camera head. Is it? Or for online editing will it be necessary other hardware?

And secondly if the software could be or not to be licensed for online editing work purposes, the same is possible to ask about the CineForm RAW. If . . . is it allowed final online editing output from the camera head CineForm bundle?

(Could there be any kind of restriction for our information, isn't it? Like those small letters on the bottom of the insurance contracts . . .)

Jason Rodriguez · June 10th, 2006, 12:12 PM

The Cineform Prospect HD license is separate from the camera head software . . . so you can run the camera head on one computer and keep your Cineform/Premiere Pro software license on another computer for editing.

The high-power laptops should be plenty of juice to work in Premiere Pro/Cineform for editing. The only issue with a laptop will be no HD-SDI output . . . but if you're burning HD-DVD's or something like that, I'm guessing there would be no issues.

But output to tape would be an issue from a laptop, and why you may want to use another workstation as your editing platform, depending on the output path you want to take, and what you'd like to use for monitoring.

Also if you're wanting to-do a film-out, you may want another monitor besides the screen on your laptop . . . those screens are not going to be very representational of a digital projector or film projection.

Mathieu Kassovitz · June 10th, 2006, 01:55 PM

Well seen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Rodriguez

The high-power laptops should be plenty of juice to work in Premiere Pro/Cineform for editing.

Like your minimum laptop requirements? Core Duo at 2.0 Ghz?

Quote:

The only issue with a laptop will be no HD-SDI output . . .

Any solution available from any external device?

Quote:

Also if you're wanting to-do a film-out, you may want another monitor besides the screen on your laptop . . . those screens are not going to be very representational of a digital projector or film projection.

Indeed. Again: any suggestion? Any external solution?

BTW to monitoring from a laptop, will there be any sort of HDMI signal output solution out there, isn't it? If even my home HD/DVD tuner recorder has it . . .

*EDIT*

Nevertheless, the major concern regarding the laptop that will work with the camera head is to know if . . . will it be enough also for online editing without hassles? As a true 1080p or even 2k editing & color correcting/grading workstation? In a simple laptop?

I'm coming from the filmmaking side so . . . but if that's true it will be an extraordinary achievement, a real revolution without historical precedents. As Mr. Coppola predicted two decades ago.

Jason Rodriguez · June 10th, 2006, 07:21 PM

Hi Mathieu,

Everything that you've been mentioning and wondering about should work, you just need a powerful laptop . . . the fastest Core-Duo based laptop you can find.

My suggestion would be a completely decked-out Dell M90 Mobile Workstation if you want it to double as your editing machine as well, and get full performance benefits.

For monitoring there are solutions from eCinema systems for $10K and Cinetal for $16K that give you 23" LCD monitors calibrated for DI work with DVI inputs . . . if you want calibrated systems, I don't care who you get them from, they're going to be expensive.

The nice feature with the Cinetal is that it will take a DVI input and make it an HD-SDI ouput. So you can go through the monitor and use it as a device for that conversion.

Alternatively you can use a DVI-HD-SDI converter from Gefen.

On the Mac there is the new Matrox device, and that should work nicely when Cineform RAW works in Final Cut Pro . . . but I'm suggesting the Dell right now as a system that should work really nicely in the short-term, not a Macbook Pro.

Mathieu Kassovitz · June 10th, 2006, 09:56 PM

2 GB, DDR2-667 SDRAM, 2 DIMM, will it be enough?

For monitoring, the Dell 2405FPW shouldn't it be enough? Or from the Apple's offer? Isn't it possible to calibrate it for DI work? Because all LCD/Plasma screens can't they be used for accurate color correcting or grading work? The same to DLP technology either? Does it mean including the projectors option?

*EDIT*Salut Jason et Merci!

Jason Rodriguez · June 10th, 2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

2 GB, DDR2-667 SDRAM, 2 DIMM, will it be enough?

Yes, that should be plenty.

BTW, just as a quick disclaimer, since we haven't "certified" any systems, and personally tested them, I can't completely vouch that a Dell M90 will work . . . but from what I know these systems require, and what I've had here in my lab, and from what I see on the spec sheets of the Dell M65 or M90, they should work fine.

Everyone considering pre-purchasing systems before we ship cameras needs to keep that in mind. There is no reason I can think of why these laptop systems won't work . . . but since we actually haven't used one to-do what we're doing, maybe there might be something that certain laptops may have a problem with . . . and that is where I can't tell and just don't know enough to be absolutely certain.

If you are worried that something won't work, please wait an let us test it, or at least test some systems and certify them.

Mathieu Kassovitz · June 11th, 2006, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Rodriguez

Yes, that should be plenty.

. . .

If you are worried that something won't work, please wait an let us test it, or at least test some systems and certify them.

When? Is there any schedule available? . . . Since I would like to buy a second laptop during the next days I'd be delighted . . .

*EDIT*

Two laptop solutions would be great: 17" and another lightweight one. 15,4" (M65 isn't it?) can be an option but if there would be smaller, it would be gold! Other brands?

If the future of the cinema is the blockbuster product for the big(ger) screen (3D/IMAX genre), on the other hand, it will be run & gun also. Indie as far as it gets . . . Follow the 10-years-ago-Dogma95/Lars-von-Trier-example, and you will be there. There will be two major winner formats.

Although we know that your camera is for indies, the most interesting is "these" indies will be working for the larger screen, as well. The danish is "the" example: who was thinking to see him in Hollywood? Someone said even Mr. Spielberg thought to adhere to the movement . . . Where's the frontier?

Ian Savage · June 11th, 2006, 03:01 AM

I'd offer a word of caution in investing in core duo CPU's right now, they are NOT EM64T capable therefore will not be able to run Windows vista or indeed any 64bit application and are very much a stop gap processor, it'd be far better to wait a little while for the next generation of them for a little bit of future proofing.

Mathieu Kassovitz · June 11th, 2006, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Savage

I'd offer a word of caution in investing in core duo CPU's right now, they are NOT EM64T capable therefore will not be able to run Windows vista or indeed any 64bit application

It's true. I bought last month a Turion 64-bits ready, exactly for that. But they are saying it will not be working. So, if we want a laptop recorder for this cam and they don't get other solution, we must be there. Is there any other possibility to shoot digital as digital and not as 35mm (that is the Arri/Panavision/Dalsa bet) ? Waiting for the RED? To next NAB maybe?

*EDIT* deleted

Ian Savage · June 11th, 2006, 09:10 AM

The next core duo's should be 64bit, codenamed Merom I believe, so they will be the first Intel powered laptops to look at portable CPU wise, till then I'd personally not bother, best sticking to the power hungry Pentium D's remembering that your battery life will be, well it really ain't long to be polite.

I mean there is a beta 32bit version of vista but what is the point, it's memory that is an issue for us and that means a 64bit OS wins out, hence it's best to save your money, get some intrest on it and buy when the next gen core duo is out.

One handy thing for those of us who build our own PC's is to have a list of motherboards etc tested with the camera or what is more usefull is an area on the SI forum where people can put down what works for them, helps to build a solid base of information for users of this camera.

David Taylor · June 11th, 2006, 09:38 AM

I'm writing this response on a demo unit of the new Sony Vaio AR190. It's announced (and on Sony's website) but not yet shipping. It's a very sweet machine for editing. A few features include:

Core Duo T2500 (2GHz)
200GB drive organized as 2x 100GB RAID 0 (5400 rpm)
1GB RAM (I'd want 2GB in it)
17" WUXGA panel (1920 x 1200)
Blu Ray Drive
HDMI

One of the initial tests we run to evaluate editing performance is a 1920 x 1080 10-bit PremPro project through two streams, a transition, and color correction applied to each clip. Answer? No problem. The RAID allows two streams to be pulled simultaneously, and the 2GHz Core Duo can decode them both simultaneously plus apply the correction and the mix. This is a very nice machine. It seems that for mobile editing needs or on-location editing this machine will work very well.

We haven't qualified the AR190 for ingest with the SICam. The on-board networking on the AR190 doesn't support GigE (necessary for SICam ingest) but it reportedly has a doc that supports GigE. We're trying to get our hands on one. We'll let you know after we test it.

BTW, I'm not sure where the comment about Core Duo incompatibility with Vista comes from. Sony claims on their site that the T2500 is Vista compabitle. Yes I think it will run in 32-bit mode however.

Douglas Call · June 11th, 2006, 10:42 AM

the following unit is shipping from Dell right now. It has a 20.1 inch widescreen and RAID 0 (2x100GB) Hard Drive configuration see below.

Dell Inspiron XPS M2010:
Intel® Core® T2600 Duo Processor (2.16GHz/667MHz FSB)
Operating System (Office software not included):Genuine Windows® XP Professional
LCD Panel:20.1 inch WSXGA+ Wide Screen with TrueLife™ and Integrated Web Cam
Memory:2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)
Hard Drive:200GB (2 x 100)7200RPM High Performance RAID Hard Drives
Combo/DVD+RW Drives:Slot Load DVD Drive on XPS M2010
Sound Options:Integrated Creative SoundBlaster High Definition Audio
Video Card:256MB ATI MOBILITY™ RADEON® X1800
Wireless Networking Cards:Intel 3945 802.11a/g Dual-band Mini-Card

I runs on dual 6 cell batteries! the think looks ultra cool for bringing onsite to show client your work or editing on location.

But like some people already mentioned it doesn't appear to have x64 bit processors, although the Dell site says it is Vista enabled? whatever that means.

Joe Carney · June 11th, 2006, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Taylor

I'm writing this response on a demo unit of the new Sony Vaio AR190. It's announced (and on Sony's website) but not yet shipping. It's a very sweet machine for editing. A few features include:

Core Duo T2500 (2GHz)
200GB drive organized as 2x 100GB RAID 0 (5400 rpm)
1GB RAM (I'd want 2GB in it)
17" WUXGA panel (1920 x 1200)
Blu Ray Drive
HDMI

One of the initial tests we run to evaluate editing performance is a 1920 x 1080 10-bit PremPro project through two streams, a transition, and color correction applied to each clip. Answer? No problem. The RAID allows two streams to be pulled simultaneously, and the 2GHz Core Duo can decode them both simultaneously plus apply the correction and the mix. This is a very nice machine. It seems that for mobile editing needs or on-location editing this machine will work very well.

We haven't qualified the AR190 for ingest with the SICam. The on-board networking on the AR190 doesn't support GigE (necessary for SICam ingest) but it reportedly has a doc that supports GigE. We're trying to get our hands on one. We'll let you know after we test it.

BTW, I'm not sure where the comment about Core Duo incompatibility with Vista comes from. Sony claims on their site that the T2500 is Vista compabitle. Yes I think it will run in 32-bit mode however.

If it has an ExpressCard slot you can get GigE if necessary, but better if it's on board and use the slot for eSata Raid drives.

June 10th, 2006, 12:34 AM	#46
Mathieu Kassovitz Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: paris Posts: 289	Will there be full online editing straight out of the camera head purchase box? Who will buy this configuration: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=68113 . . . will already have a solution to post? Full online editing (native & final resolution) allowing color correcting and grading tools? Without any other software and/or hardware needs?

June 10th, 2006, 09:35 AM	#47
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Not clear what you questions are. The SI camera work very tightly with Prospect HD Edit -- which cames bundled with the camera. PHD Edit enables Adobe products - AE, PPro - to operate seamlessly with CineForm RAW; enabling you use any color correctly or gradient tools you like that plug in to these applications. Prospect HD also comes with RT color correction. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

June 10th, 2006, 11:42 AM	#48
Mathieu Kassovitz Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: paris Posts: 289	hardware & software requirements for online editing Merci My first question is if when we are buying a laptop for the cam capture if this hardware is enough for editing work with the software bundled with the camera head. Is it? Or for online editing will it be necessary other hardware? And secondly if the software could be or not to be licensed for online editing work purposes, the same is possible to ask about the CineForm RAW. If . . . is it allowed final online editing output from the camera head CineForm bundle? (Could there be any kind of restriction for our information, isn't it? Like those small letters on the bottom of the insurance contracts . . .)

June 10th, 2006, 09:56 PM	#52
Mathieu Kassovitz Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: paris Posts: 289	2 GB, DDR2-667 SDRAM, 2 DIMM, will it be enough? For monitoring, the Dell 2405FPW shouldn't it be enough? Or from the Apple's offer? Isn't it possible to calibrate it for DI work? Because all LCD/Plasma screens can't they be used for accurate color correcting or grading work? The same to DLP technology either? Does it mean including the projectors option? EDITSalut Jason et Merci! Last edited by Mathieu Kassovitz; June 11th, 2006 at 12:29 AM.

June 11th, 2006, 10:42 AM	#59
Douglas Call Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hollywood, FL Posts: 302	You can get a Dell Mobil M2010 Now the following unit is shipping from Dell right now. It has a 20.1 inch widescreen and RAID 0 (2x100GB) Hard Drive configuration see below. Dell Inspiron XPS M2010: Intel® Core® T2600 Duo Processor (2.16GHz/667MHz FSB) Operating System (Office software not included):Genuine Windows® XP Professional LCD Panel:20.1 inch WSXGA+ Wide Screen with TrueLife™ and Integrated Web Cam Memory:2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms) Hard Drive:200GB (2 x 100)7200RPM High Performance RAID Hard Drives Combo/DVD+RW Drives:Slot Load DVD Drive on XPS M2010 Sound Options:Integrated Creative SoundBlaster High Definition Audio Video Card:256MB ATI MOBILITY™ RADEON® X1800 Wireless Networking Cards:Intel 3945 802.11a/g Dual-band Mini-Card I runs on dual 6 cell batteries! the think looks ultra cool for bringing onsite to show client your work or editing on location. But like some people already mentioned it doesn't appear to have x64 bit processors, although the Dell site says it is Vista enabled? whatever that means.

June 10th, 2006, 12:12 PM	#49
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	The Cineform Prospect HD license is separate from the camera head software . . . so you can run the camera head on one computer and keep your Cineform/Premiere Pro software license on another computer for editing. The high-power laptops should be plenty of juice to work in Premiere Pro/Cineform for editing. The only issue with a laptop will be no HD-SDI output . . . but if you're burning HD-DVD's or something like that, I'm guessing there would be no issues. But output to tape would be an issue from a laptop, and why you may want to use another workstation as your editing platform, depending on the output path you want to take, and what you'd like to use for monitoring. Also if you're wanting to-do a film-out, you may want another monitor besides the screen on your laptop . . . those screens are not going to be very representational of a digital projector or film projection.

June 10th, 2006, 07:21 PM	#51
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Hi Mathieu, Everything that you've been mentioning and wondering about should work, you just need a powerful laptop . . . the fastest Core-Duo based laptop you can find. My suggestion would be a completely decked-out Dell M90 Mobile Workstation if you want it to double as your editing machine as well, and get full performance benefits. For monitoring there are solutions from eCinema systems for $10K and Cinetal for $16K that give you 23" LCD monitors calibrated for DI work with DVI inputs . . . if you want calibrated systems, I don't care who you get them from, they're going to be expensive. The nice feature with the Cinetal is that it will take a DVI input and make it an HD-SDI ouput. So you can go through the monitor and use it as a device for that conversion. Alternatively you can use a DVI-HD-SDI converter from Gefen. On the Mac there is the new Matrox device, and that should work nicely when Cineform RAW works in Final Cut Pro . . . but I'm suggesting the Dell right now as a system that should work really nicely in the short-term, not a Macbook Pro.

June 11th, 2006, 03:01 AM	#55
Ian Savage Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: England Posts: 88	I'd offer a word of caution in investing in core duo CPU's right now, they are NOT EM64T capable therefore will not be able to run Windows vista or indeed any 64bit application and are very much a stop gap processor, it'd be far better to wait a little while for the next generation of them for a little bit of future proofing.

June 11th, 2006, 09:10 AM	#57
Ian Savage Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: England Posts: 88	The next core duo's should be 64bit, codenamed Merom I believe, so they will be the first Intel powered laptops to look at portable CPU wise, till then I'd personally not bother, best sticking to the power hungry Pentium D's remembering that your battery life will be, well it really ain't long to be polite. I mean there is a beta 32bit version of vista but what is the point, it's memory that is an issue for us and that means a 64bit OS wins out, hence it's best to save your money, get some intrest on it and buy when the next gen core duo is out. One handy thing for those of us who build our own PC's is to have a list of motherboards etc tested with the camera or what is more usefull is an area on the SI forum where people can put down what works for them, helps to build a solid base of information for users of this camera.

June 11th, 2006, 09:38 AM	#58
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	I'm writing this response on a demo unit of the new Sony Vaio AR190. It's announced (and on Sony's website) but not yet shipping. It's a very sweet machine for editing. A few features include: Core Duo T2500 (2GHz) 200GB drive organized as 2x 100GB RAID 0 (5400 rpm) 1GB RAM (I'd want 2GB in it) 17" WUXGA panel (1920 x 1200) Blu Ray Drive HDMI One of the initial tests we run to evaluate editing performance is a 1920 x 1080 10-bit PremPro project through two streams, a transition, and color correction applied to each clip. Answer? No problem. The RAID allows two streams to be pulled simultaneously, and the 2GHz Core Duo can decode them both simultaneously plus apply the correction and the mix. This is a very nice machine. It seems that for mobile editing needs or on-location editing this machine will work very well. We haven't qualified the AR190 for ingest with the SICam. The on-board networking on the AR190 doesn't support GigE (necessary for SICam ingest) but it reportedly has a doc that supports GigE. We're trying to get our hands on one. We'll let you know after we test it. BTW, I'm not sure where the comment about Core Duo incompatibility with Vista comes from. Sony claims on their site that the T2500 is Vista compabitle. Yes I think it will run in 32-bit mode however.