Should I work with this composer again?

[Ryan Elder]

What a coincidence I just thought of Once Upon A Time in America, and was going to mention it. Well I guess I can ask the composer to use whatever instrument sounds good then, as long as it fits... Some instruments are hard to get good samples for, so maybe it would be worth it find someone who can play it, or maybe that would cost too much more, but I can see...

[Brian Drysdale]

Ir's not about what sounds good, but is it appropriate? They are Jewish gangsters in Once Upon a Time in America, so that adds an immigrate aspect to the story.

An instrument may sound good, however, if it doesn't add anything or detracts from the culture, the characters or the action you need to question why it's there.

[Paul R Johnson]

I just don't get why you want to strangle the composer with a demand for a certain instrument when this might stifle a perfectly wonderful idea. You're too young to remember Gheorghe Zamfir - he did for pan pipes what your president is doing for mask manufacturers - confusing everyone.

Have a listen to Morricone's Once upon a time in the West - absolutely haunting and a female voice with no words but incredible 'aaaahing'. Contrast this with the signature theme/song from Blazing Saddles, which used every musical cliche possible - the instrumentation and even the accent of the voice - a caricature of 60s era westerns.

At the end of one of the Austin Powers movies, there was a piece of music recorded by Alan Parsons - for copyright reasons I had to re-record this for a project, but it's quite full of more subtle music 'clues' - it's called the time machine but is kind of a piece of music that's quite predictable.

The Time Machine - YouTube

[Ryan Elder]

oh okay. I don't want to stifle the music of course I just thought that certain instruments would help bring out the feeling better what I was wanting the composer to do.

[Paul R Johnson]

They will. The problem is you are not a musician.

[Ryan Elder]

Yep that is true, I was just trying to get the sound I was looking for based on the temp tracks I like.

[Brian Drysdale]

Talk to the composer about this.

[Paul R Johnson]

Ryan - if you were colour blind, would there be any point in selecting the colours for the costumes or set? You'd let somebody who you trusted look after them wouldn't you?

You insist on using industry titles for people's roles, but don't let them do that role - you dilute it by taking back partial control, and two people can never agree and really be happy. If you cannot help interfering in every decision, you will never grow.Would you ask the composer about camera angles, and would you ask the actors what aspect ratio would be best? Of course not - but you cannot resist it - you want control of every area and do not trust anyone. You want to be director but lack the talent, so you want a good director to allow you to co-direct, which we've told you many times never works. You are a medical student who wants his first operation to be heart surgery, not removing an ingrowing toe-nail.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, I can let the composer do his job. I just want the music to sound like how I want it to sound as well, but don't most directors want the music to sound like how they want, or do they give the composer complete free reign and however it sounds, is however it sounds?

[Paul R Johnson]

Ask yourself a question.

Will your likes and dislikes be appreciated by the viewing public? If you like Greek Bouzouki music will this be appreciated by others?

Most Directors who understand music and how it works would have a composer who shared the same ideas. You don't seem to be on the same planet sometimes? I suppose because you don't even trust yourself to make decisions, your abilities in this area are somewhat compromised?

[Brian Drysdale]

Most feature film directors have discussions with the composer and leave them to it, they don't sit over their shoulder all the time as they compose. Surprise and accidents are all part of the creative process. However, it doesn't always work out, the original music for "Chinatown" was dropped and Jerry Goldsmith was brought in for new score.

The "Battle of Britain" film had a complex tale, with William Walton doing the score, that was rejected by the guys in charge of United Artists (not the director), John Barry was approached, but refused. The Ron Goodwin accepted the gig. although one of the producers was unhappy about the choice. In the released film Walton's music also gets used and if you buy a DVD in the UK you've a choice of musical score.

The music is something that does make directors nervous because they don't have control over it. Talk with your composer and make your suggestions, but don't micro manage because you'll stand a good chance of getting a poor soundtrack.

If you wish to have precise control use pre-recorded music, that won't change.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh yeah, I wasn't going to watch over them as they work. I just wanted to give them samples, and ask them ot use certain instruments in the samples, unless they had better ideas perhaps. I didn't think that was micromanaging though.

[Paul R Johnson]

Engage an interior designer and then insist they use your colours, that they know are not going to work?

What we are saying Ryan is that you could say I would like to feature digeredoo, because I think it goes really well with this scene, and you supply them the rough cut and they think, it's a bit weird, the scene is about somebody abandoned in a deserted nuclear power station, but it fits so they write a great piece for the scene. Or, you have a scene where there is a great vista like scene featuring a lake, birds and the actor alone in a boat, but tell them you'd like to feature a bassoon. Not a horrible instrument, but honky and nasal. The composer could feature it but it removes so much opportunity.

If you think your ideas are guidelines, that the composer is free to disagree with and offer you alternatives that brilliant, but you before were telling them to use certain instruments, which might not be appropriate or easy to listen to. Do you think your musical skills are up to making good decisions, or are you on page 89 of your rule book. Movie=western. Western=harmonica or sensual/sexy=saxophone. Shower scene =violins.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh well, I was just going by what I thought sounded good for emotional purposes. The temp track I had in mind has a duduk in it for example, and I like the sound which is part of the reason why I think the temp track is effecetive. Or one of the reasons why I like another temp track is because a harmonica is in it, which I thought was efffective.

I didn't think the duduk and harmonica were not easy to listen to. I was just going by what I thought would sound best. But I was going by what inspired me in movies before. Unless going by inspiration from other movies is not good?

[Paul R Johnson]

You're not good with inspiration, you seem to want to copy. Taking little bits from movies and using them as templates. You have, in these topics, come up with so many examples from movies that I've never seen, and often never heard of, and then used these as examples. I've no idea how somebody of your age has seen and remembered so many movies! You've also got a movie history going back years before you were born. A massive collection of hundreds of styles and genres. You are having trouble assembling them into a cohesive movie. You pick a camera move from one, lighting from others and music from others and expect it to suddenly congeal into a nice to experience movie. It doesn't work like this.

Go to YouTube and look up guy michelmore a musician who composes, I think I've mentioned him before, and watch him compose. See how he writes music, and how he chooses sounds. Watch how he builds the content to match the brief. Watch him decide no sound fits so he creates one from a strange noise. See how he builds tension and create mood.

You don't understand how the process works, so your opinions on emotion are built on very shaky foundations, which cannot sometimes support your needs. Rule books built on cliches just don't work!

I suppose I too have rules, but mine are divided into so many degrees that change by circumstance, I just think they're not actually rules at all, just suggestions for direction.