Should I work with this composer again?

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks, that's pretty much what I was thinking.

[Ryan Elder]

Out of curiosity, since we are on the subject, would a panflute work as music during the more emotional moments? The temp track I was thinking of is at 35:58 into the this movie:

The Killer 1989 CHINESE movie - YouTube

But would a pan flute sound odd, or could it work, since that movie made it work?

[Brian Drysdale]

Do you have any emotional sense?

You're asking questions that any audience member or filmmaker with any musical feelings and judgment would have discovered over the years. If you can't select a piece of music as a temp track without asking on a forum for an opinion, you should become a film producer, rather than a director or an editor.

We don't know anything about the context or content of the scene you're proposing to use this piece of music, so how can we pass comment.

If it feels right to you when you play it with the scene, it usually is. However, in your case, from the nature of the questions that keep asking, I don't know if that works.

[Paul R Johnson]

To be honest, when you get something that you had to work really hard at, and in my case, take exams,meeting trivialised in this way, it makes me pretty grumpy. I can forgive the endless conversations about video and audio, because any competent person can become a camera op or sound op, but wanting to have artistic skills when they are clearly totally absent and assuming that because you have the budget and are in charge qualifies your judgement as the best one, is so wrong! One current project I am really struggling with because I am producing music for two people streets ahead of me in the musical world to perform. This is considerable pressure, even though they're both lovely and forgiving people. However, I want to give them something worthy, and it's hard.

Music for moving image is not, and never has been, a case of picking music you like. It's about picking what is appropriate based on your musical knowledge. The idea of tying a composer's hands behind their back because somebody musically inept has the money is quite demeaning to a musician. It's similar to when actors get badly directed, when they know wha they're asked to do is terrible.

Are you aware the pan flute is one of the classic cliche instruments, and is like marmite/Donald trump/American football. You either love it or hate it, nothing in between.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Why doesn’t he cut out the middle man? Take the soundtracks from the movies he likes. The temp track is the final track! With the money he saved from not hiring a composer, he could get a local band to do a cover. Of course probably have to buy them a duduk...

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, I thought that a bad would cost more than a composer who could do it all virtually.

I didn't think the pan flute was cliche as I hardly ever hear it in movies.

As for trying to be creative and artistic,
I guess I just got to do the best I can...

I don't mean for my judgment to be the best, I am just trying to establish what is best, and why, which I guess what I asked.

[Brian Drysdale]

The musical world is larger than movies, an instrument's place is larger than what you hear in film soundtracks. It brings all that "baggage" when you use it in a movie.

Being creative involves doing something that you haven't done before and possibly hasn't been done in a particular way by anybody else. Often it's someone's personal experiences that they've put into a production that resonates with the subject matter and so the audience.

No one here can advise on what is best for your film because we know nothing about it. The music is just one element that needs to work within the whole.

[Paul R Johnson]

The snag is you wouldn't understand the 'why' - we've been trying to explain this for a very long time. You don't understand and want to very badly, but repeatedly demonstrate you don't have the artistic side at all. Your version of art is a collection of examples you have used to create rules that are faulty, and the need to cling to rules means you lose sight of what is creatively best. Film makers who are successful instinctively know these things. Many are totally non-technical and they surround themselves with technical folk who bring their vision to life. your solution to everything is to try to take control and basically interfere with everyone's role. You have shown that your ability in virtually every department as a technical operator is flawed. you've also demonstrated your creative roles - producer, director, DoP etc also have issues because you never, ever make decision on the spot. You post every decision on the net, and wait for people to make decisions for you, but then reject the good suggestions and use the one or two that corroborate your poorer one.

One day, a lightbulb moment will happen and you will make a decision for yourself, and it will be a great one and you will be so pleased you will burst.

Ask yourself a question. Why do you get creatives involved with your projects if you constantly tie their hands behind their backs and force them to do what you think is best?

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, I didn't think I was tying anyones hands though. I don't for example, the DP or actors or sound recordist found their hands tied. What did I do to tie their hands in the past?

[Brian Drysdale]

You're discussing the composer here, not DPs or actors. Although, the same issue of discussing things comes up regarding the DP in other threads.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, well I don't mean to be too controlling, I am just trying to acquire what I feel is best, using my own judgment, but I do welcome input from people as well. I just like having preliminaries ready to go, such as preliminary temp music ideas for the composer.

[Brian Drysdale]

Unfortunately, you're not totally using your own judgment. The temp tracks will be finailsed during the editing, when you can judge if they're working,

With one of my shorts. we used as temp tracks the music I listened to while writing the script. Interestingly, in one piece, it wasn't just the instrument or the piece of music, it was how it was being played that was important. One of the funders asked for me to use the composer playing the same piece of music for the opening, instead of the music composed for the film. We agreed that the final selection would be made in the mixing suite.

The composer cleverly matched the emotions of the way the temp was being played in his composition and kept his playing of his version of the temp more neutral . We asked the dubbing mixer which he preferred and the answer was the composer's music. So the film had his music throughout.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. Well I was advised to bring a composer on early on, but if I do, won't they be making decisions before the editing process then?

Also, I see what you mean about an instrument vs. the way it's being played I think. It's just that it's hard to find temp tracks that are exactly what I want so I will have to tell the composer, I like the rythym, it's just perhaps could use a different instrument for part of it, and I will suggest the instrument, but maybe the composer would come up with something better.

For example, one of my temp tracks I like the beat off, but the main instrument is a saxophone, and a sax sounds too sexual or too erotic, probably because it's a cliched instrument for being used for scenes like that in movies.

But I like the beat. This is why I thought, I want a similar beat but with the sax replaced with something else, if that is a sensible reason to replace it, as one example.

[Brian Drysdale]

If you look hard enough you can always find suitable music.

Composer are commonly brought on late in the day, if they're your friend you can have chats with them.

There are cases where the composer is brought in before shooting starts, but unless it's a musical that not the usual way of working. Sergio Leone did it with Ennio Morricone, but I gather they went to school together, so there's ab old relationship.

[Paul R Johnson]

Sax can sound sexual or erotic, or it can sound haunting or sad. It can also sound totally rhythmic. It's capable of being played in hundreds of ways. You're thinking cliche, hence why you have a pre-formed opinion of these things.

You are also getting very confused with temporary tracks - they are just unlinked mood music - better than silence and scene setting. They have little to do with the finished music, and it's rare they actually fit in a way that lets them be used.