Daylight + Lighting Kit = Frustration?

Travis Cossel · March 14th, 2006, 07:32 PM

Hmm . . I looked them up in the white pages and they aren't even listed. Was this a while ago that you got their info?

In other news, the new clip is now online. You can download it via this link:

http://www.dreambigproductions.com/c.../downloads.htm

Marcus Marchesseault · March 15th, 2006, 04:52 AM

1,000% improvement! Good thinking.

How does the color corrector just remove the magenta from your talent? I didn't quite get how that is accomplished. I think this is a technique that ALL videographers should learn. The difference is almost hard to believe. Those lighting conditions were about the worst combinations possible and you pulled it off. I suppose if you had some candle light that needed to be matched in there, that would be the ultimate! :) Maybe a warm glow from a refinery coming in a side window?

I almost hate to say it, but the speed-pan transition going into the "improve your cholesterol" still looks green. It's just in the .5 seconds of the pan.

BTW, if you have too many fluorescents that are too green, you can try gelling your lights with plusgreen (1/8th?) and at least have even light to get your white balance. Many office fluorescents are 4100K, so they are easier to blend with daylight. If you have more shoots like this, try to get some daylight balanced lights since it is easier to gel down the color temperature than to gel up. Tungsten just doesn't put out much blue and putting full CTB on them really kills your brightness.

Travis Cossel · March 15th, 2006, 08:39 AM

Thanks. I really appreciate all of the comments.

In the color corrector I used an eye-dropper tool that I can select a specific color with. Once I select a color, any adjustments I make to black levels, mids, whites and saturation will only affect that color.

To really make this work, though, I had to click with the dropper in a couple of different, but key, places. Like highlights, mids and shadows that were heavy in red or magenta in faces and shirts. Then, after I've got a rough selection of colors, I expanded the hue range that was to be affected, as well as expanded the saturation range and the luminance range. The end result which can be previewed in black/white viewer shows a selection of mostly the individual's red face and red shirt. Some background elements were also partially selected, but not enough to make much difference.

Once the selection is done, I just backed off the saturation until it looked about right. The original color corrector that I used for white balance and adjusting blacks, mids, whites and saturation is still affecting the clip. I just added another color corrector and made it's effect color specific.

I won't lie. It was tedious and hard on the eyes after a while, but worth the work overall I think.

And yeah, you're right that the speed-pan into "improve your cholesterol" isn't colored right. The way I had to create those transitions required making a 1-frame clip of the actual pan movement. I missed applying a corrective color correcting filter to that single frame, so it now affects the entire 20-frame transition. It's actually a yellow tint, but still, good catch. If nothing else, by pointing it out you made me smile because I knew you were really watching closely. I appreciate that.

Thanks for the tips on gelling. I've never done that, but I expect to be doing it soon. I'm sure I'll have questions, and I know right where I'll ask them. d:-)

Marcus Marchesseault · March 15th, 2006, 06:27 PM

I just realized that this video, and it's outcome, are a good textbook case for color correction and lighting. I can't think of a more perfect scenario for color correction. Mixed lighting sources and skin types in several shots all in the same room makes this a great learning tool. If there could be a corresponding lighting tutorial with on-location fixes to the issues using gels and lights, this would be equivalent to Lighting and Color Correction 301 that could still be understood by beginners. If you could narrate a video with before-and-after examples, you would propel people's understanding of color correction ahead from beginner to advanced in 5 minutes of video. I know I learned something and I have an actor that I really want to look good that has a lot of magenta tones in his face. This post was good timing for me!

Travis Cossel · March 15th, 2006, 06:47 PM

I'm glad to hear my ordeal helped someone else out too! I certainly learned a lot about lighting and color correction with this project. As far as putting a video together, I don't think I have the time. I work like a dog as it is, although I do try to help out on here whenever I can. I'll think about it, but don't hold your breath . . . d:-)

Cal Johnson · March 17th, 2006, 03:33 PM

Just thought I would add my 2 cents worth... Marcus nailed it, you were presented with the worst lighting scenario you could come across... tungsten, florescent and daylight all mixed together. Whenever you're faced with mixed lighting, and want to have a balanced look, you have to pick one of the source's temperature and adjust the other's to that.

The decision of which temperature to go with comes down to what you can manage. Replacing the bulbs or adding gels to the florescent lights wasn't in the budget. But neither was putting color correction gels on all the windows (which is what a bigger budget probably would have done). So now you have to keep working the problem. I'd first determine if I need the florescent lights as a source, or can you turn them off? If you can turn them off, CTB the light kit and leave the windows as is. If you can't turn off the lights, then can you block the windows? I was in a similar situation and since people were working, the lights had to stay on, but it turned out all the windows had blinds, so we just lowered those.

If that won't work, you're kind of stuck. No matter how you slice it, the camera can only be white balanced to one temperature at a time, so you would have an imbalance. As a last ditch effort, you could try to divide and conquer. Use color correcting gels to correct your light kit to the stronger of the two sources, and then try to overpower the weaker light source, thereby minimizing its influence. Tough situation though.

Bob Grant · March 17th, 2006, 03:52 PM

I've been through exactly this lighting / CC nightmare. Best way to avoid it, use only daylight balanced light sources. If you end up with some inkie praticals in the shot it still looks OK, the eye copes nicely with warm light sources. Get daylight in a shot balanced for tungsten and it looks really bad.

I managed to CC my problem shoot to some extent using several beziers but still I was left with shadows of mixed CT. Thankfully it was one very long static shot.

Travis Cossel · March 17th, 2006, 05:37 PM

Yeah, my problem is that I didn't recognize the problem. I completely forgot about the fluorescent lighting. I should have turned them off to see how it looked. Oh well, a good lesson learned.

Gregory S. Ouellette · March 29th, 2006, 11:37 PM

shooting inside with window during daylight.
two 2-bulb flourescents on ceiling.

i replaced the tubes with daylight tubes from HomeDepot ($4/a pop)
used clamp reflectors with 100w daylight bulbs. they sell these in regular style bulbs and daylight compact flourescents. i used the regular style.

got it balanced enough where panning with the crane 270 degrees around garage the exposure stayed in center of meter. added a little nd gel over one of the clamp lights that i shined straight at the side of the drummer and it also traveled to the profile of the singer on a barstool closeby.

i am an amateur just getting into this and i must say, it was remarkable in the end for such little $$$ and time spent. (clamp lights up on mic stand booms)

these bulbs come in spots too now, even a huge 100w compact flourescent daylight version.

Robert Aldrich · April 2nd, 2006, 12:17 PM

I haven't seen the video yet, (it's still downloading) but I have solved this problem in the past by putting large sheets of CTO (color temperature orange) which is mixed with ND (neutral density) which looks a dark orange to the eye.

You put that over the windows, which changes it to tungsten color and knocks down the levels appreciably, so that you can also light with tungsten indoors and have about the right levels for video, which isn't that forgiving of high-contrast situations.

If you can't afford enough CTO/ND to cover all the windows, just close some of the blinds and cover with what you were able to afford, but the stuff is very cheap and you don't need to cut it up, really, just thumb-tack it to the windows outside and let the extra overlap, then roll it up and save it for the next shoot.

March 14th, 2006, 07:32 PM	#16
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Hmm . . I looked them up in the white pages and they aren't even listed. Was this a while ago that you got their info? In other news, the new clip is now online. You can download it via this link: http://www.dreambigproductions.com/c.../downloads.htm __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

March 15th, 2006, 08:39 AM	#18
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Thanks. I really appreciate all of the comments. In the color corrector I used an eye-dropper tool that I can select a specific color with. Once I select a color, any adjustments I make to black levels, mids, whites and saturation will only affect that color. To really make this work, though, I had to click with the dropper in a couple of different, but key, places. Like highlights, mids and shadows that were heavy in red or magenta in faces and shirts. Then, after I've got a rough selection of colors, I expanded the hue range that was to be affected, as well as expanded the saturation range and the luminance range. The end result which can be previewed in black/white viewer shows a selection of mostly the individual's red face and red shirt. Some background elements were also partially selected, but not enough to make much difference. Once the selection is done, I just backed off the saturation until it looked about right. The original color corrector that I used for white balance and adjusting blacks, mids, whites and saturation is still affecting the clip. I just added another color corrector and made it's effect color specific. I won't lie. It was tedious and hard on the eyes after a while, but worth the work overall I think. And yeah, you're right that the speed-pan into "improve your cholesterol" isn't colored right. The way I had to create those transitions required making a 1-frame clip of the actual pan movement. I missed applying a corrective color correcting filter to that single frame, so it now affects the entire 20-frame transition. It's actually a yellow tint, but still, good catch. If nothing else, by pointing it out you made me smile because I knew you were really watching closely. I appreciate that. Thanks for the tips on gelling. I've never done that, but I expect to be doing it soon. I'm sure I'll have questions, and I know right where I'll ask them. d:-) __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

March 15th, 2006, 06:47 PM	#20
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	I'm glad to hear my ordeal helped someone else out too! I certainly learned a lot about lighting and color correction with this project. As far as putting a video together, I don't think I have the time. I work like a dog as it is, although I do try to help out on here whenever I can. I'll think about it, but don't hold your breath . . . d:-) __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

March 17th, 2006, 03:33 PM	#21
Cal Johnson Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 180	mixed lighting... Just thought I would add my 2 cents worth... Marcus nailed it, you were presented with the worst lighting scenario you could come across... tungsten, florescent and daylight all mixed together. Whenever you're faced with mixed lighting, and want to have a balanced look, you have to pick one of the source's temperature and adjust the other's to that. The decision of which temperature to go with comes down to what you can manage. Replacing the bulbs or adding gels to the florescent lights wasn't in the budget. But neither was putting color correction gels on all the windows (which is what a bigger budget probably would have done). So now you have to keep working the problem. I'd first determine if I need the florescent lights as a source, or can you turn them off? If you can turn them off, CTB the light kit and leave the windows as is. If you can't turn off the lights, then can you block the windows? I was in a similar situation and since people were working, the lights had to stay on, but it turned out all the windows had blinds, so we just lowered those. If that won't work, you're kind of stuck. No matter how you slice it, the camera can only be white balanced to one temperature at a time, so you would have an imbalance. As a last ditch effort, you could try to divide and conquer. Use color correcting gels to correct your light kit to the stronger of the two sources, and then try to overpower the weaker light source, thereby minimizing its influence. Tough situation though.

March 17th, 2006, 05:37 PM	#23
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Yeah, my problem is that I didn't recognize the problem. I completely forgot about the fluorescent lighting. I should have turned them off to see how it looked. Oh well, a good lesson learned. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

March 15th, 2006, 04:52 AM	#17
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	1,000% improvement! Good thinking. How does the color corrector just remove the magenta from your talent? I didn't quite get how that is accomplished. I think this is a technique that ALL videographers should learn. The difference is almost hard to believe. Those lighting conditions were about the worst combinations possible and you pulled it off. I suppose if you had some candle light that needed to be matched in there, that would be the ultimate! :) Maybe a warm glow from a refinery coming in a side window? I almost hate to say it, but the speed-pan transition going into the "improve your cholesterol" still looks green. It's just in the .5 seconds of the pan. BTW, if you have too many fluorescents that are too green, you can try gelling your lights with plusgreen (1/8th?) and at least have even light to get your white balance. Many office fluorescents are 4100K, so they are easier to blend with daylight. If you have more shoots like this, try to get some daylight balanced lights since it is easier to gel down the color temperature than to gel up. Tungsten just doesn't put out much blue and putting full CTB on them really kills your brightness.

March 15th, 2006, 06:27 PM	#19
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	I just realized that this video, and it's outcome, are a good textbook case for color correction and lighting. I can't think of a more perfect scenario for color correction. Mixed lighting sources and skin types in several shots all in the same room makes this a great learning tool. If there could be a corresponding lighting tutorial with on-location fixes to the issues using gels and lights, this would be equivalent to Lighting and Color Correction 301 that could still be understood by beginners. If you could narrate a video with before-and-after examples, you would propel people's understanding of color correction ahead from beginner to advanced in 5 minutes of video. I know I learned something and I have an actor that I really want to look good that has a lot of magenta tones in his face. This post was good timing for me!

March 17th, 2006, 03:52 PM	#22
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	I've been through exactly this lighting / CC nightmare. Best way to avoid it, use only daylight balanced light sources. If you end up with some inkie praticals in the shot it still looks OK, the eye copes nicely with warm light sources. Get daylight in a shot balanced for tungsten and it looks really bad. I managed to CC my problem shoot to some extent using several beziers but still I was left with shadows of mixed CT. Thankfully it was one very long static shot.

March 29th, 2006, 11:37 PM	#24
Gregory S. Ouellette Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bend, Oregon Posts: 42	i just had this problem, cheap fix,, shooting inside with window during daylight. two 2-bulb flourescents on ceiling. i replaced the tubes with daylight tubes from HomeDepot ($4/a pop) used clamp reflectors with 100w daylight bulbs. they sell these in regular style bulbs and daylight compact flourescents. i used the regular style. got it balanced enough where panning with the crane 270 degrees around garage the exposure stayed in center of meter. added a little nd gel over one of the clamp lights that i shined straight at the side of the drummer and it also traveled to the profile of the singer on a barstool closeby. i am an amateur just getting into this and i must say, it was remarkable in the end for such little $$$ and time spent. (clamp lights up on mic stand booms) these bulbs come in spots too now, even a huge 100w compact flourescent daylight version.

April 2nd, 2006, 12:17 PM	#25
Robert Aldrich Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 39	Daylight + Lighting Kit = Frustration? I haven't seen the video yet, (it's still downloading) but I have solved this problem in the past by putting large sheets of CTO (color temperature orange) which is mixed with ND (neutral density) which looks a dark orange to the eye. You put that over the windows, which changes it to tungsten color and knocks down the levels appreciably, so that you can also light with tungsten indoors and have about the right levels for video, which isn't that forgiving of high-contrast situations. If you can't afford enough CTO/ND to cover all the windows, just close some of the blinds and cover with what you were able to afford, but the stuff is very cheap and you don't need to cut it up, really, just thumb-tack it to the windows outside and let the extra overlap, then roll it up and save it for the next shoot.