Coollights disappointment

Richard Andrewski · February 2nd, 2010, 02:53 AM

This is old news. Maybe it might not be if you're a "New Boot" but, that's what site search is for. Use "full spectrum LED" for example as a search term. You'll see me right there in practically every thread that comes up talking about this issue proactively. Despite LED spectrums, we see lots of great results every day from stuff we do and things that customers show us and we post in our gallery. I just don't see the issues. So if you are having issues, it is best to perhaps rethink what you are doing and how you are doing it and test, test, test until you find the right combination that makes you happy. And no, adding a tungsten colored filter is not going to improve the spectrum, that just takes out some blue and makes it more yellow colored to match other tungsten lighting. There is no other inherent reason to use a CTO filter IMHO.

You use each tool to its advantage and don't try to make it into what it isn't. From Caves to Cars is my motto for this light. You are hardly going to take along a tungsten kit spelunking in a cave with a huge battery or generator for example. Nor would you take along a Kino Flo diva, inverter and car battery either. You'd use something like the LED 256 or 600 which is perfectly suited to this and can be as self contained as possible. If you are traveling India doing a Yoga video, living out of one suit case, here's your light. If you're Dan Chung or John Gyovai traveling in the third world, making videos in impoverished areas without great power plug options, here you go. ENG use? You bet. Several scattered network affiliates as well as some of the Fox Sports news network agrees and thinks the LED 600 is well suited for ENG use. And plenty of other places where we can use it to its greatest advantage which is portable, light, self-contained, battery powered and has most all of what you need with it including a minus green which I am not aware of another LED panel that includes that.

For those that have been around since the LED 600 was born, just before and after--plenty has been said, mostly by me, right on this site and others, about that daylight LEDs aren't full spectrum--including the CL-LED600. No daylight LED is and I have yet to find a high CRI daylight LED. My guess is that when they do finally appear, and they will at some point, they will be so expensive as to not be usable. And it will still be a simulation of full spectrum just like a flo or HMI bulb is at this point. Not real full spectrum like daylight, tungsten or carbon arc.

We've also talked about what you have to do to make a more full spectrum LED light in the meantime which generally involves RGB LEDs or at least bi-color mixing. Future Cool Lights fixtures will use bi-color mixing method as we felt that to be the best for now considering all things. We will still have an all daylight panel though as there is a place for that and will continue to be a place for it.

Here's a few links you can find from past threads on the subject, so no one is trying to hide anything on this subject:

Before LED 600 release:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-m...lights-10.html

After LED 600 release:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-m...ed-lights.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-m...lo-vs-led.html

And on our own blog we've been frank as well:

http://www.coollights.biz/wordpress/archives/72

And talking about CRI in LEDs and how it can be improved in future fixtures:

http://www.coollights.biz/wordpress/archives/199

I frankly don't know another manufacturer that provides more information than we do--with which to make intelligent choices. Perhaps too much information, but you can hardly say anyone is hiding something here.

The LED 600 is super popular at this point, draws lots of positive comments and mainly because we do set expectations beforehand. Also we price this where we think it should be priced. Not at about 4 times the price like a 1x1.

As far as spectrums go, I would wager that the Litepanels 1x1 would have about the same spectrum as an LED 600 with minus green on it. Would be interesting to see in any case.

Ian Dart · February 2nd, 2010, 03:28 AM

well put richard.

as a professional gaffer with blondies and dedos and everything in between i puchased 2 600's. i must say they are the handiest lights i have (ok.... apart from the dedos).

have used them at some stage on every shoot i have done.

once you work out their limitations (which every light has) you wont look back.

have had nothing but good comments from the dop's i light for.
(needless to say i take all the credit)

cheers
ian

Richard Andrewski · February 2nd, 2010, 05:44 AM

Hehe, great to hear you're still out there giving them hell Ian. What would you say is the most common use you use them for on film sets. And are you guys mostly still using film or more digital these days?

Ian Dart · February 2nd, 2010, 06:20 AM

hi, R

have been lighting for the full range of cameras.
"van diemans land"... shot on red by ellery ryan
did all the campfire scenes for that one.

a couple of tvcs where they used the canon 5d it is
becoming quite popular.

used the 600s for lots of car shoots great inside and out
especially being able to dim it

one dop likes me to use it instead of poly to bang a bit of fill on the faces (puts a sparkle in the eyes)....works great.

especially like the venetion blind effect (when you close up the barndoors) on the background of interviews dops love that
saves me getting the dedo out with a gobo on it.

there is a +7 green spike according to the colour temp meter,
but to be honest i have never seen it on the monitor and i have worked with some picky dops......
shooting on film i would put in the minus green filter just to be safe
but on video i just cant see it.

all in all i am very happy with them.

i was shooting outside one night running on batt (12v lead acid)
they run it for about 3 hours...amazing.. any way looked into the led and noticed some leds had gone out...turns out a moth had landed on it and was madly making love to the leds....i laughed so hard they had to cut and do another take........

cheers
ian

Richard Andrewski · February 2nd, 2010, 06:47 AM

Funny another guy from Australia was telling me about his panel being covered by moths. They do love bright light.

Anyway, that's what I was curious about--were you ever having to use the minus green much in that kind of work you're doing.

That is an interesting effect with the barndoors--great shutter pattern. I'd like to say I planned it that way ;-) but I won't. We'll call it a happy, unintended feature.

Ian Dart · February 2nd, 2010, 07:08 AM

hi mate,

have lit for almost all the formats and cameras available.

although i always offer up the minus green filters to the dop's,
i have never been asked to put it in. we do a bit of backward and forward to the monitor to check the look of the picture and we do not even see the green spike such as it is.
being from the old school if i was working with film i would put in the minus green filter just for my own peace of mind.

cheers
ian

the moths down here are really something....not a wise move to interupt them when they are making love to your led..............

Mark Bolding · February 2nd, 2010, 04:16 PM

Thanks Richard and Ian for informative posts.

mb

Francois Xavier · February 4th, 2010, 02:57 AM

Richard, we have received the two missing filters this morning. Thank you very much!
As for price and portability I think clearly yours are the best bang for the bucks.
We will try and find a way of warming them faces up in post.

Ian Dart · February 4th, 2010, 03:46 AM

hi francois,

can i reccomend ...lee filters 188 cosmetic highlight to warm up the faces

it is 1/4 cto with 1/4 white diff it also gets rid of the green spike....dont ask me how but it works...

i know of tv talent who wont work without it.
i use it on my flouros and leds.

cheers
ian

Richard Andrewski · February 4th, 2010, 05:38 AM

Thanks for your comments Ian, Mark and Francois.

Ian, is that filter commonly used?

If we take this down to the basics of whats happening there, what you are really saying is you bring the color temperature down to about 5000K. The next question will be how do they white balance in this case? Do they balance to 5000K or 5600K. If 5600K, I could understand the slight warming of the faces, if they balance at 5000K, its hard to see what it would accomplish.

Michael Liebergot · February 4th, 2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Dart

hi francois,

can i reccomend ...lee filters 188 cosmetic highlight to warm up the faces

it is 1/4 cto with 1/4 white diff it also gets rid of the green spike....dont ask me how but it works...

i know of tv talent who wont work without it.
i use it on my flouros and leds.

cheers
ian

Ian, are you using the sleeve version?
Rosco | Fluorescent Lighting Sleeve/Tube | 110084014805-E188

We recently ordered 4 Fluorescent lights (sorry Richard, I had to go elsewhere as we needed these ASAP) and this seems like they might be a good solution.

Richard Andrewski · February 4th, 2010, 05:31 PM

Actually I just looked at the swatch and it seems more like the 1/4 minus green we provide. What's the difference I wonder?

Ian Dart · February 4th, 2010, 11:34 PM

hi guys,

i buy it by the roll..more versatile that way. because i dont use it all the time putting the sleeves on and off would be a pain.
you can get it by the sheet which would be cheaper

i introduced a couple of dop's to it and now they wont let me light without it.

i only tend to use it on the talents key and fill.

i think they white balance at 5600 then we filter up.

i have mainly been using it for interview situations but have used it on drama productions.

needless to say if i am lighting tungstan i tend not to use it i just use half or full white diff.

cheers
ian

Andrew Dean · February 5th, 2010, 04:46 AM

I got my 600s before they came with gels. Bought a roll of minusgreen and sat down with a couple DPs and a shaft of sunlight, a kino diva and a cool lights 4 bank fluoro. we went back and forth comparing the 600 with various levels of minusgreen. In the end we all agreed on the best gelling for color match and while i forget exactly, i believe it was 3 sheets of 1/8 minusgreen on the flood and 2 sheets of 1/4 and 1 sheet of 1/8th on the spot. (don't quote me, that could be way off). Once we decided on the color I gaffed the gels to the barn doors and have never taken them off. If i want warming and whatever i slide it down behind the barn doors, behind the minusgreen gels.

With the minusgreens in place, I think skintones look way better. Is it possible the "warmth" you are talking about is because the green spike is overwhelming the other colors without the minusgreen filter? Its not that there is a lack of red (unless your skin is on fire) so much as I think there is too much green. The cart shows that too. If you slap on enough minusgreen, the green comes down to "normal" levels and the reds are allowed to shine.

Because my minusgreens are taped to the doors, the Gaffers and DPs i've worked with dont think of the fixture as being gelled. One DP in specific approached the 600s with a strong predetermined bias that they were nasty, green and ugly lights. He refused to use them at first, then during a break asked me in a smartass voice to point one of my "ghetto panels" at the female lead so she'd look more like an alien. I had one ready with a 12v battery on the legs like a sandbag. I carried it over before he could react and flicked it on. There was a really long silence as he circled around her getting closer and closer, looking at the fixture, looking at the light as it cast on his hand... It was like watching a monkey examine a television. He never stopped calling them "ghetto panels" but called for them over and over again through the shoot. Rumor has it he bought his own pair.

To ME, without the minusgreens, i don't care for the fixtures at all. Once you add the minusgreens, it loses a bit of light but becomes infinitely more versatile and I think more flattering. We use it for fills on faces all the time.

Thats purely my opinion. If you need the extra light, the green spikes might be worth it to you. I like how the fixture can serve both masters.

Regarding the barn doors... can you post a picture? Something funky is going on there. I have zero fear of the barn doors coming off mine.

cheers!

Paul Hudson · February 6th, 2010, 09:52 AM

First of all let me say that Richard at Cool Lights has always been more than helpful and builds fantastic products for the price. Secondly, be aware that LED's often require a bit of messaging when dealing with skin tones, it is just the nature of the beast.

With everything you give up something to get something. With LED's you gain the advantage of weight and excessive heat and power requirements of tungsten but give up the need to add a bit of minus green in some situations.

Paul Hudson
Lizardlandvideo.com
Phoenix Video Production

February 2nd, 2010, 02:53 AM	#16
Richard Andrewski Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shenzhen, China Posts: 781	This is old news. Maybe it might not be if you're a "New Boot" but, that's what site search is for. Use "full spectrum LED" for example as a search term. You'll see me right there in practically every thread that comes up talking about this issue proactively. Despite LED spectrums, we see lots of great results every day from stuff we do and things that customers show us and we post in our gallery. I just don't see the issues. So if you are having issues, it is best to perhaps rethink what you are doing and how you are doing it and test, test, test until you find the right combination that makes you happy. And no, adding a tungsten colored filter is not going to improve the spectrum, that just takes out some blue and makes it more yellow colored to match other tungsten lighting. There is no other inherent reason to use a CTO filter IMHO. You use each tool to its advantage and don't try to make it into what it isn't. From Caves to Cars is my motto for this light. You are hardly going to take along a tungsten kit spelunking in a cave with a huge battery or generator for example. Nor would you take along a Kino Flo diva, inverter and car battery either. You'd use something like the LED 256 or 600 which is perfectly suited to this and can be as self contained as possible. If you are traveling India doing a Yoga video, living out of one suit case, here's your light. If you're Dan Chung or John Gyovai traveling in the third world, making videos in impoverished areas without great power plug options, here you go. ENG use? You bet. Several scattered network affiliates as well as some of the Fox Sports news network agrees and thinks the LED 600 is well suited for ENG use. And plenty of other places where we can use it to its greatest advantage which is portable, light, self-contained, battery powered and has most all of what you need with it including a minus green which I am not aware of another LED panel that includes that. For those that have been around since the LED 600 was born, just before and after--plenty has been said, mostly by me, right on this site and others, about that daylight LEDs aren't full spectrum--including the CL-LED600. No daylight LED is and I have yet to find a high CRI daylight LED. My guess is that when they do finally appear, and they will at some point, they will be so expensive as to not be usable. And it will still be a simulation of full spectrum just like a flo or HMI bulb is at this point. Not real full spectrum like daylight, tungsten or carbon arc. We've also talked about what you have to do to make a more full spectrum LED light in the meantime which generally involves RGB LEDs or at least bi-color mixing. Future Cool Lights fixtures will use bi-color mixing method as we felt that to be the best for now considering all things. We will still have an all daylight panel though as there is a place for that and will continue to be a place for it. Here's a few links you can find from past threads on the subject, so no one is trying to hide anything on this subject: Before LED 600 release: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-m...lights-10.html After LED 600 release: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-m...ed-lights.html http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-m...lo-vs-led.html And on our own blog we've been frank as well: http://www.coollights.biz/wordpress/archives/72 And talking about CRI in LEDs and how it can be improved in future fixtures: http://www.coollights.biz/wordpress/archives/199 I frankly don't know another manufacturer that provides more information than we do--with which to make intelligent choices. Perhaps too much information, but you can hardly say anyone is hiding something here. The LED 600 is super popular at this point, draws lots of positive comments and mainly because we do set expectations beforehand. Also we price this where we think it should be priced. Not at about 4 times the price like a 1x1. As far as spectrums go, I would wager that the Litepanels 1x1 would have about the same spectrum as an LED 600 with minus green on it. Would be interesting to see in any case. __________________ Richard Andrewski - Cool Lights USA - RED #114 http://www.coollights.biz

February 2nd, 2010, 05:44 AM	#18
Richard Andrewski Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shenzhen, China Posts: 781	Hehe, great to hear you're still out there giving them hell Ian. What would you say is the most common use you use them for on film sets. And are you guys mostly still using film or more digital these days? __________________ Richard Andrewski - Cool Lights USA - RED #114 http://www.coollights.biz

February 2nd, 2010, 06:47 AM	#20
Richard Andrewski Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shenzhen, China Posts: 781	Funny another guy from Australia was telling me about his panel being covered by moths. They do love bright light. Anyway, that's what I was curious about--were you ever having to use the minus green much in that kind of work you're doing. That is an interesting effect with the barndoors--great shutter pattern. I'd like to say I planned it that way ;-) but I won't. We'll call it a happy, unintended feature. __________________ Richard Andrewski - Cool Lights USA - RED #114 http://www.coollights.biz

February 4th, 2010, 02:57 AM	#23
Francois Xavier Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Lausanne, Switzerland Posts: 25	Received missing filters - thanks! Richard, we have received the two missing filters this morning. Thank you very much! As for price and portability I think clearly yours are the best bang for the bucks. We will try and find a way of warming them faces up in post.

February 4th, 2010, 05:38 AM	#25
Richard Andrewski Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shenzhen, China Posts: 781	Thanks for your comments Ian, Mark and Francois. Ian, is that filter commonly used? If we take this down to the basics of whats happening there, what you are really saying is you bring the color temperature down to about 5000K. The next question will be how do they white balance in this case? Do they balance to 5000K or 5600K. If 5600K, I could understand the slight warming of the faces, if they balance at 5000K, its hard to see what it would accomplish. __________________ Richard Andrewski - Cool Lights USA - RED #114 http://www.coollights.biz

February 2nd, 2010, 03:28 AM	#17
Ian Dart Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 67	well put richard. as a professional gaffer with blondies and dedos and everything in between i puchased 2 600's. i must say they are the handiest lights i have (ok.... apart from the dedos). have used them at some stage on every shoot i have done. once you work out their limitations (which every light has) you wont look back. have had nothing but good comments from the dop's i light for. (needless to say i take all the credit) cheers ian

February 2nd, 2010, 06:20 AM	#19
Ian Dart Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 67	hi, R have been lighting for the full range of cameras. "van diemans land"... shot on red by ellery ryan did all the campfire scenes for that one. a couple of tvcs where they used the canon 5d it is becoming quite popular. used the 600s for lots of car shoots great inside and out especially being able to dim it one dop likes me to use it instead of poly to bang a bit of fill on the faces (puts a sparkle in the eyes)....works great. especially like the venetion blind effect (when you close up the barndoors) on the background of interviews dops love that saves me getting the dedo out with a gobo on it. there is a +7 green spike according to the colour temp meter, but to be honest i have never seen it on the monitor and i have worked with some picky dops...... shooting on film i would put in the minus green filter just to be safe but on video i just cant see it. all in all i am very happy with them. i was shooting outside one night running on batt (12v lead acid) they run it for about 3 hours...amazing.. any way looked into the led and noticed some leds had gone out...turns out a moth had landed on it and was madly making love to the leds....i laughed so hard they had to cut and do another take........ cheers ian

February 2nd, 2010, 07:08 AM	#21
Ian Dart Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 67	hi mate, have lit for almost all the formats and cameras available. although i always offer up the minus green filters to the dop's, i have never been asked to put it in. we do a bit of backward and forward to the monitor to check the look of the picture and we do not even see the green spike such as it is. being from the old school if i was working with film i would put in the minus green filter just for my own peace of mind. cheers ian the moths down here are really something....not a wise move to interupt them when they are making love to your led..............

February 2nd, 2010, 04:16 PM	#22
Mark Bolding Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Pembroke Pines, Florida Posts: 109	Thanks Richard and Ian for informative posts. mb

February 4th, 2010, 03:46 AM	#24
Ian Dart Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 67	hi francois, can i reccomend ...lee filters 188 cosmetic highlight to warm up the faces it is 1/4 cto with 1/4 white diff it also gets rid of the green spike....dont ask me how but it works... i know of tv talent who wont work without it. i use it on my flouros and leds. cheers ian

February 4th, 2010, 05:31 PM	#27
Richard Andrewski Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shenzhen, China Posts: 781	Actually I just looked at the swatch and it seems more like the 1/4 minus green we provide. What's the difference I wonder? __________________ Richard Andrewski - Cool Lights USA - RED #114 http://www.coollights.biz

February 4th, 2010, 11:34 PM	#28
Ian Dart Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 67	hi guys, i buy it by the roll..more versatile that way. because i dont use it all the time putting the sleeves on and off would be a pain. you can get it by the sheet which would be cheaper i introduced a couple of dop's to it and now they wont let me light without it. i only tend to use it on the talents key and fill. i think they white balance at 5600 then we filter up. i have mainly been using it for interview situations but have used it on drama productions. needless to say if i am lighting tungstan i tend not to use it i just use half or full white diff. cheers ian

February 5th, 2010, 04:46 AM	#29
Andrew Dean Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Motukarara, New Zealand Posts: 475	minus minus I got my 600s before they came with gels. Bought a roll of minusgreen and sat down with a couple DPs and a shaft of sunlight, a kino diva and a cool lights 4 bank fluoro. we went back and forth comparing the 600 with various levels of minusgreen. In the end we all agreed on the best gelling for color match and while i forget exactly, i believe it was 3 sheets of 1/8 minusgreen on the flood and 2 sheets of 1/4 and 1 sheet of 1/8th on the spot. (don't quote me, that could be way off). Once we decided on the color I gaffed the gels to the barn doors and have never taken them off. If i want warming and whatever i slide it down behind the barn doors, behind the minusgreen gels. With the minusgreens in place, I think skintones look way better. Is it possible the "warmth" you are talking about is because the green spike is overwhelming the other colors without the minusgreen filter? Its not that there is a lack of red (unless your skin is on fire) so much as I think there is too much green. The cart shows that too. If you slap on enough minusgreen, the green comes down to "normal" levels and the reds are allowed to shine. Because my minusgreens are taped to the doors, the Gaffers and DPs i've worked with dont think of the fixture as being gelled. One DP in specific approached the 600s with a strong predetermined bias that they were nasty, green and ugly lights. He refused to use them at first, then during a break asked me in a smartass voice to point one of my "ghetto panels" at the female lead so she'd look more like an alien. I had one ready with a 12v battery on the legs like a sandbag. I carried it over before he could react and flicked it on. There was a really long silence as he circled around her getting closer and closer, looking at the fixture, looking at the light as it cast on his hand... It was like watching a monkey examine a television. He never stopped calling them "ghetto panels" but called for them over and over again through the shoot. Rumor has it he bought his own pair. To ME, without the minusgreens, i don't care for the fixtures at all. Once you add the minusgreens, it loses a bit of light but becomes infinitely more versatile and I think more flattering. We use it for fills on faces all the time. Thats purely my opinion. If you need the extra light, the green spikes might be worth it to you. I like how the fixture can serve both masters. Regarding the barn doors... can you post a picture? Something funky is going on there. I have zero fear of the barn doors coming off mine. cheers!

February 6th, 2010, 09:52 AM	#30
Paul Hudson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 37	First of all let me say that Richard at Cool Lights has always been more than helpful and builds fantastic products for the price. Secondly, be aware that LED's often require a bit of messaging when dealing with skin tones, it is just the nature of the beast. With everything you give up something to get something. With LED's you gain the advantage of weight and excessive heat and power requirements of tungsten but give up the need to add a bit of minus green in some situations. Paul Hudson Lizardlandvideo.com Phoenix Video Production