Various lighting questions & answers from 2004

Ken Tanaka · January 20th, 2004, 11:35 PM

Ali,
There are no hard rules when it comes to lighting. Your eyes determine what's "right" in any situation.

The 3-point lighting configuration was derived principally from still portraiture methods. That back light, sometimes called a "hair light" or "rim light", is indeed normally placed high and is aimed at the subject's back. The goal is to cast a rim of highlight around the subject's head and shoulders. This is intended to have a defining effect and to help to visually separate the subject from the background.

A background light is normally a separate instrument dedicated to dropping lower-level light onto a background surface. Background lights are often placed nearly parallel to the background surface such that they skim it. They are also often little more than scrimmed-down spotlights (fresnels) that cast dollops of light on something(s) interesting in the background.

Again, though, your eye and the specific scene need to determine what looks right to you. Learn, but don't be a slave to, dogma where lighting is concerned.

I hope this is helpful.

Charles Papert · January 21st, 2004, 02:32 AM

Depending on the look you want, it may be possible to have the hairlight just to the side of the frame, avoiding shooting the stand. Or you can get a boom stand--Manfrotto makes a decently priced one.

Jacques Mersereau · January 23rd, 2004, 01:32 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Sam Trobot : Hey y'all,
I'm using the agdvx100 for documentary in the 24p mode. But it eats up light like a sixteen year old at a buffet. So I'm looking at lights, but alas, they are so expensive. >>>

Cheap home depot work lights aren't that expensive. Real lights with
pro quality are very expensive. There are reasons.

What to buy? It ALL depends on what you want to accomplish and
the level you would like to attain.

<<I want to be able to do interviews in lit rooms that are regular bright but may need a little extra push and for on location stuff when I can only get away with one or two lights.>>

On location? Outside . . . inside? There's a world of difference.
Outside you need either very powerful halogen (~3200 degree color temp)
with "booster blue" gel to bump the color temp up to daylight (5600 degrees)
or HMIs. HMI's are the best by far for this application, but way beyond the
normal human's budget.

Inside lighting is easier when using today's DV camcorders, because of
their low light abilities. You don't need as much power. However,
depending on what you want to accomplish. A good kit of lights
(I'd recommend a couple of soft boxes like the Lowel RIFA 88s)
and a Fresnel or two would be a good _start_. Altman makes
some nice durable fresnels of various sizes. Arri and Desisti make
great but pricey stuff. There are TONs of posts about all flavors
somewhere in this site.

A 25, 50 or 100 watt "on camera" light works well for close up interviews
*inside*, but won't win you any awards. You'll get a "live at 5" news
gathering look. So, it depends on what level you are going for.

<<<Secondly, I've never bought one of these lights before and am debating between several companies: besides bescor, and frezzolini, there's cool lux and lowel. Do people have any warnings or ideas? Are they basically all equally good quality-wise? >>>

At NAB a few years ago I scored one of the Cool Lux U3s. It works and
does the job for close up, "the light is in your face" videos. I think some
of the others you mention are brighter and may do a better job of
covering a larger area (like a wedding dance etc.)

I have no experience with that other cool lux you mention.

Shaya Motamed · January 25th, 2004, 12:11 PM

I've been working on a bmx movie and i've found that recentely we've been going out at night to shoot/ride.

what i was wondering about was if there were any cheap, portable lights i could take around with me that i wouldn't have to put on my camera.

Adrian Douglas · January 26th, 2004, 07:11 AM

Power is going to be your biggest problem. I've shot snowboarding at night using work lights which worked well but we had a portable generator we borrowed from a carpenter mate.

John Locke · January 28th, 2004, 06:13 AM

Anyone know why http://www.matthewsgrip.com/ is no longer online? Did they go belly up?

I was thinking about investing in a Road Rags kit, but if they're out of business....

Helen Bach · January 28th, 2004, 06:36 AM

Hi John,
Try http://www.msegrip.com
Best,
Helen
PS I'll do my best to keep them in business!

John Locke · January 28th, 2004, 06:49 AM

Thanks, Helen!

Nice new web site, too.

Bjørn Sørensen · January 30th, 2004, 02:58 PM

I am in the market for a basic light kit to use for lighting a standard portrait setup for interviews, both in studio and on location, and also to use as fill lights on location jobs.

I have seen some kits with combinations of 500 Watt or 300 W lights, but isn't this too much light for my need?

What about the Dedolight's, they have only 150 Watts and comes with a built in dimmer. And they are very compact and lightweight.

Which system (type/watts) can you recommend ?

Bill Pryor · February 4th, 2004, 12:46 PM

If you want open face lights you might look at Redheads. I think they're made by Ianirio (not sure about the spellling). They take up to 1000 watt lamps.
You can also get a nice 3-light set from Arri or Mole-Richardson. I'd say two 650s and a 300 would be nice. You can get smaller lamps for the 650s--I have a set of 5 Altman fresnels and use mostly 500 watt lamps in them. Lowel also makes a compact set of 3 Omni lights, in a case with stands and barn doors and scrims. Omnis go up to 600 watt. I use 450s in mine. You can also get 200 watt DC lamps and run one off a cigaret lighter in a car.
I think 150watt lights would be too little for normal 3-point lighting, except maybe for a backlight.

Mike Donaldson · February 6th, 2004, 04:55 PM

'lo

This my first post, but it's something I've been thinking about for a while...

Filming DV indoors often looks bad against white walls - what's the best way of dealing with this irksome problem? Coloured gels on backlighting? Painting the walls a neutral shade?

Which strategies have proved the most successful with the film-makers on this board?

Any help would be appreciated...tia.

-Mike D-

Ken Tanaka · February 6th, 2004, 05:55 PM

Welcome Mike!

Well I'm sure that you'll get many ideas in response.

Indeed, a white background, such as a wall, looks pretty flat and dull if it's not treated in some way. I guess the first suggestion I'll offer is to try not to shoot in front of a blank white wall.

But if that's not possible you'll want to work towards visually pulling your subject off of that wall. Use a rim light on your subject. Try to provide generous separation between the subject and the wall. Use a patterned gobo with a background light to project some soft pattern across the wall, with or without a colored gel.

Donie Kelly · February 11th, 2004, 07:48 PM

Hi all

In the market for a video light and from looking at some of the posts here I have decided that a Sony model might be the best option for me as I also own a TRV22 and I can use it's batteries to power the light when using my XL1s.

The model I was going for was the HVL20DW2.CE7 but I also noticed a HVL20DM.CE7. They both "look" identical and are the same price.

Can anybody tell me what the difference is between these lights and why I should choose one over the other?

Thanks so much...
Donie

Donie Kelly · February 11th, 2004, 08:00 PM

Ok, I think I figured it out, the HVL20DM.CE7 light can be powered by the M-Series batteries which my Sony uses. I have a NP-QM91 battery for that.

It also says on amazon.co.uk that the light is for camcorders not equipped with Accessory Shoe. I guess the Sony hot shoe would not be compatible with the Canon hot-shoe? Is that correct? So I presume this is the light that would suit the Xl1s?

The other light, the HVL20DW2.CE7 is powered by the L-Series batteries so I guess they are not compatible with my battery? Plus, they are compatible with the Sony hot-shoe.

Thanks in advance for any other input.
Donie

Marco Leavitt · February 11th, 2004, 10:45 PM

We're shooting in a room with removable acoustic tiles set in a metal grid like they have in offices and I want to hang a smallish fresnel using a ceiling scissors clamp. Can anyone tell me how much weight those things can support? I'm looking at hanging a 300W or 650W Arri. The 300W weighs 6.5 lbs and the 650W weighs 7.2 lbs. Is that too much weight?

January 20th, 2004, 11:35 PM	#61
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Ali, There are no hard rules when it comes to lighting. Your eyes determine what's "right" in any situation. The 3-point lighting configuration was derived principally from still portraiture methods. That back light, sometimes called a "hair light" or "rim light", is indeed normally placed high and is aimed at the subject's back. The goal is to cast a rim of highlight around the subject's head and shoulders. This is intended to have a defining effect and to help to visually separate the subject from the background. A background light is normally a separate instrument dedicated to dropping lower-level light onto a background surface. Background lights are often placed nearly parallel to the background surface such that they skim it. They are also often little more than scrimmed-down spotlights (fresnels) that cast dollops of light on something(s) interesting in the background. Again, though, your eye and the specific scene need to determine what looks right to you. Learn, but don't be a slave to, dogma where lighting is concerned. I hope this is helpful. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

January 21st, 2004, 02:32 AM	#62
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Depending on the look you want, it may be possible to have the hairlight just to the side of the frame, avoiding shooting the stand. Or you can get a boom stand--Manfrotto makes a decently priced one. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

January 23rd, 2004, 01:32 PM	#63
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	<<<-- Originally posted by Sam Trobot : Hey y'all, I'm using the agdvx100 for documentary in the 24p mode. But it eats up light like a sixteen year old at a buffet. So I'm looking at lights, but alas, they are so expensive. >>> Cheap home depot work lights aren't that expensive. Real lights with pro quality are very expensive. There are reasons. What to buy? It ALL depends on what you want to accomplish and the level you would like to attain. <<I want to be able to do interviews in lit rooms that are regular bright but may need a little extra push and for on location stuff when I can only get away with one or two lights.>> On location? Outside . . . inside? There's a world of difference. Outside you need either very powerful halogen (~3200 degree color temp) with "booster blue" gel to bump the color temp up to daylight (5600 degrees) or HMIs. HMI's are the best by far for this application, but way beyond the normal human's budget. Inside lighting is easier when using today's DV camcorders, because of their low light abilities. You don't need as much power. However, depending on what you want to accomplish. A good kit of lights (I'd recommend a couple of soft boxes like the Lowel RIFA 88s) and a Fresnel or two would be a good _start_. Altman makes some nice durable fresnels of various sizes. Arri and Desisti make great but pricey stuff. There are TONs of posts about all flavors somewhere in this site. A 25, 50 or 100 watt "on camera" light works well for close up interviews inside, but won't win you any awards. You'll get a "live at 5" news gathering look. So, it depends on what level you are going for. <<<Secondly, I've never bought one of these lights before and am debating between several companies: besides bescor, and frezzolini, there's cool lux and lowel. Do people have any warnings or ideas? Are they basically all equally good quality-wise? >>> At NAB a few years ago I scored one of the Cool Lux U3s. It works and does the job for close up, "the light is in your face" videos. I think some of the others you mention are brighter and may do a better job of covering a larger area (like a wedding dance etc.) I have no experience with that other cool lux you mention. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

January 25th, 2004, 12:11 PM	#64
Shaya Motamed New Boot Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 7	bmx video I've been working on a bmx movie and i've found that recentely we've been going out at night to shoot/ride. what i was wondering about was if there were any cheap, portable lights i could take around with me that i wouldn't have to put on my camera.

January 26th, 2004, 07:11 AM	#65
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	Power is going to be your biggest problem. I've shot snowboarding at night using work lights which worked well but we had a portable generator we borrowed from a carpenter mate. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

January 28th, 2004, 06:13 AM	#66
John Locke Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Austin, TX USA Posts: 2,882	Matthews gone? Anyone know why http://www.matthewsgrip.com/ is no longer online? Did they go belly up? I was thinking about investing in a Road Rags kit, but if they're out of business.... __________________ John Locke SursumFilms.com

January 28th, 2004, 06:36 AM	#67
Helen Bach Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 120	Hi John, Try http://www.msegrip.com Best, Helen PS I'll do my best to keep them in business!

January 28th, 2004, 06:49 AM	#68
John Locke Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Austin, TX USA Posts: 2,882	Thanks, Helen! Nice new web site, too. __________________ John Locke SursumFilms.com

January 30th, 2004, 02:58 PM	#69
Bjørn Sørensen Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 143	Need a basic light kit I am in the market for a basic light kit to use for lighting a standard portrait setup for interviews, both in studio and on location, and also to use as fill lights on location jobs. I have seen some kits with combinations of 500 Watt or 300 W lights, but isn't this too much light for my need? What about the Dedolight's, they have only 150 Watts and comes with a built in dimmer. And they are very compact and lightweight. Which system (type/watts) can you recommend ? __________________ x

February 4th, 2004, 12:46 PM	#70
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	If you want open face lights you might look at Redheads. I think they're made by Ianirio (not sure about the spellling). They take up to 1000 watt lamps. You can also get a nice 3-light set from Arri or Mole-Richardson. I'd say two 650s and a 300 would be nice. You can get smaller lamps for the 650s--I have a set of 5 Altman fresnels and use mostly 500 watt lamps in them. Lowel also makes a compact set of 3 Omni lights, in a case with stands and barn doors and scrims. Omnis go up to 600 watt. I use 450s in mine. You can also get 200 watt DC lamps and run one off a cigaret lighter in a car. I think 150watt lights would be too little for normal 3-point lighting, except maybe for a backlight.

February 6th, 2004, 04:55 PM	#71
Mike Donaldson Tourist Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Hull, UK Posts: 1	Wall colour... 'lo This my first post, but it's something I've been thinking about for a while... Filming DV indoors often looks bad against white walls - what's the best way of dealing with this irksome problem? Coloured gels on backlighting? Painting the walls a neutral shade? Which strategies have proved the most successful with the film-makers on this board? Any help would be appreciated...tia. -Mike D-

February 6th, 2004, 05:55 PM	#72
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Welcome Mike! Well I'm sure that you'll get many ideas in response. Indeed, a white background, such as a wall, looks pretty flat and dull if it's not treated in some way. I guess the first suggestion I'll offer is to try not to shoot in front of a blank white wall. But if that's not possible you'll want to work towards visually pulling your subject off of that wall. Use a rim light on your subject. Try to provide generous separation between the subject and the wall. Use a patterned gobo with a background light to project some soft pattern across the wall, with or without a colored gel. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

February 11th, 2004, 07:48 PM	#73
Donie Kelly Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 159	Which video light? Hi all In the market for a video light and from looking at some of the posts here I have decided that a Sony model might be the best option for me as I also own a TRV22 and I can use it's batteries to power the light when using my XL1s. The model I was going for was the HVL20DW2.CE7 but I also noticed a HVL20DM.CE7. They both "look" identical and are the same price. Can anybody tell me what the difference is between these lights and why I should choose one over the other? Thanks so much... Donie

February 11th, 2004, 08:00 PM	#74
Donie Kelly Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 159	Ok, I think I figured it out, the HVL20DM.CE7 light can be powered by the M-Series batteries which my Sony uses. I have a NP-QM91 battery for that. It also says on amazon.co.uk that the light is for camcorders not equipped with Accessory Shoe. I guess the Sony hot shoe would not be compatible with the Canon hot-shoe? Is that correct? So I presume this is the light that would suit the Xl1s? The other light, the HVL20DW2.CE7 is powered by the L-Series batteries so I guess they are not compatible with my battery? Plus, they are compatible with the Sony hot-shoe. Thanks in advance for any other input. Donie

February 11th, 2004, 10:45 PM	#75
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Question on hanging light We're shooting in a room with removable acoustic tiles set in a metal grid like they have in offices and I want to hang a smallish fresnel using a ceiling scissors clamp. Can anyone tell me how much weight those things can support? I'm looking at hanging a 300W or 650W Arri. The 300W weighs 6.5 lbs and the 650W weighs 7.2 lbs. Is that too much weight?