Light meters for DV camcorders

Alex Taylor · November 1st, 2003, 03:38 AM

I think Hugh's talking about calibrating an external monitor to use instead of an on-camera LCD.

Bryan Beasleigh · November 1st, 2003, 12:38 PM

Alex
There is no on camera LCD just the 180k viewfinder. There's only so much that you can expect from a .7 inch LCD viewfinder , that's why people use a production monitor.

John Jackman · November 2nd, 2003, 09:25 PM

Alex, you cannot calibrate the LCD flipout monitor on prosumer cameras, and LCD monitors have different gamma than a real CRT monitor. You should not make critical lighting judgments based on a flip-out LCD.

Actually, though the procedure described in Graff's article is the correct procedure, it doesn't QUITE work for prosumer cameras, which do not add setup. The SMPTE bars are intended to work with setup (pedestal) added. The XL1s, GL2, etc. do not add setup to the output signal and display black as 0 IRE rather than 7.5 IRE. A wrist slap all round. To make matters worse, Sony added a setup control on the VX2000, but did it the wrong way -- recording the setup to tape rather than adding it to analog otuput. Haven't ahd a chance to see if they fixed this on the new version.

A "fudge" for calibrating monitors with non-setup camcorders is at:

http://www.greatdv.com/video/smptebars2.htm

Hugh, I don't understand why you don't calibrate the color. It ain't that hard and you can run into silly problems if it's off to far.

Bryan Beasleigh · November 2nd, 2003, 10:07 PM

Nice site John. Loads of good reading.
I've bookmarked it and included it in my sites for newbies file.

Alex Dunn · November 3rd, 2003, 09:24 AM

I didn't think you could (with accuracy), that's why I asked for clarification. The attachable 4 inch LCDs seem to be growing in popularity, I thought maybe this is what he was using. I made a big assumption, oops!

Marc Young · November 7th, 2003, 07:34 PM

Well, you guys convinced me to buy a pro monitor and not rely on my lcd. There goes another $1500 ... for a Sony PVM-8045Q.

Brad Simmons · November 9th, 2003, 12:30 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Marc Young : Well, you guys convinced me to buy a pro monitor and not rely on my lcd. There goes another $1500 ... for a Sony PVM-8045Q. -->>>

Great little monitor. You'll be happy with it.

David Ziegelheim · November 9th, 2003, 02:52 AM

Is it safe to by an 8045 now? Don't you need an 8045QD with SDI? And will these work with the rumored HDV mini-cams (XL2 elsewhere on this site).

I recently shot with an SDX900 and the video viewed as SDI was different than the video viewed through the monitor port.

John Hartney · November 9th, 2003, 06:00 PM

Hi Chris,

I agree with the consensus that a monitor is the best referance for video lighting. But, I use a Sekonic L-398M Studio Deluxe II - Analog Incident and Reflected Light Meter to check for drops in level on large sets.

I'll use it as a final confirmation to check where levels change on a set.

Camera zebra pattens are useful for judging exposure on a given frame, but when a large area must be set checked, and you have talent working a stage where the director wants a uniform light over a large area, a meter is the best choice for the final check imho.

Best,

John Hartney
werks.tv
Elgin, Illinois
847.608.1357

John Jackman · November 9th, 2003, 09:01 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Ziegelheim : I recently shot with an SDX900 and the video viewed as SDI was different than the video viewed through the monitor port. -->>>

No setup.

Alain Aguilar · November 15th, 2003, 10:57 PM

When I look through my LCD color viewfinders I always get at least some zebra lines, specially if the actor is waring a white shirt. Should I try to underexpose these areas or zebra on some bright areas should be acceptable?

John Jackman · November 17th, 2003, 08:39 PM

You are better off underexposing slightly.

Alain Aguilar · November 18th, 2003, 01:37 PM

I'll go for the FT 5.6 and try to level the light accordingly.

Brad Horner · November 18th, 2003, 09:24 PM

I'm new at this so bear with me.

Wouldn't it make sense for a DV to be able to use color correction from your NLE, for example Adobe rbg? Plug your monitor into your NLE and get it corrected to something standardized.

This is a big stretch. How about connecting the monitor to a pc/mac and have some software look at your monitor while you are viewing footage. It would show color bars, right?

This might be the case of a newbie stretching too far for a solution that can be handled easier somehow.

Jeff Donald · November 18th, 2003, 10:03 PM

I'm not sure what you're trying to solve. There are hardware calibrators for monitors. They are fairly expensive, so most editors use SMPTE color bars to calibrate NTSC monitors.

November 1st, 2003, 03:38 AM	#16
Alex Taylor Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 390	I think Hugh's talking about calibrating an external monitor to use instead of an on-camera LCD. __________________ alextaylor.org

November 2nd, 2003, 09:25 PM	#18
John Jackman Great DV dot com Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lewisville, NC Posts: 78	Alex, you cannot calibrate the LCD flipout monitor on prosumer cameras, and LCD monitors have different gamma than a real CRT monitor. You should not make critical lighting judgments based on a flip-out LCD. Actually, though the procedure described in Graff's article is the correct procedure, it doesn't QUITE work for prosumer cameras, which do not add setup. The SMPTE bars are intended to work with setup (pedestal) added. The XL1s, GL2, etc. do not add setup to the output signal and display black as 0 IRE rather than 7.5 IRE. A wrist slap all round. To make matters worse, Sony added a setup control on the VX2000, but did it the wrong way -- recording the setup to tape rather than adding it to analog otuput. Haven't ahd a chance to see if they fixed this on the new version. A "fudge" for calibrating monitors with non-setup camcorders is at: http://www.greatdv.com/video/smptebars2.htm Hugh, I don't understand why you don't calibrate the color. It ain't that hard and you can run into silly problems if it's off to far. __________________ John Jackman www.johnjackman.com

November 9th, 2003, 09:01 PM	#25
John Jackman Great DV dot com Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lewisville, NC Posts: 78	<<<-- Originally posted by David Ziegelheim : I recently shot with an SDX900 and the video viewed as SDI was different than the video viewed through the monitor port. -->>> No setup. __________________ John Jackman www.johnjackman.com

November 15th, 2003, 10:57 PM	#26
Alain Aguilar Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Bergen Posts: 170	LCD question When I look through my LCD color viewfinders I always get at least some zebra lines, specially if the actor is waring a white shirt. Should I try to underexpose these areas or zebra on some bright areas should be acceptable? __________________ Alain

November 17th, 2003, 08:39 PM	#27
John Jackman Great DV dot com Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lewisville, NC Posts: 78	You are better off underexposing slightly. __________________ John Jackman www.johnjackman.com

November 1st, 2003, 12:38 PM	#17
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	Alex There is no on camera LCD just the 180k viewfinder. There's only so much that you can expect from a .7 inch LCD viewfinder , that's why people use a production monitor.

November 2nd, 2003, 10:07 PM	#19
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	Nice site John. Loads of good reading. I've bookmarked it and included it in my sites for newbies file.

November 3rd, 2003, 09:24 AM	#20
Alex Dunn Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 202	I didn't think you could (with accuracy), that's why I asked for clarification. The attachable 4 inch LCDs seem to be growing in popularity, I thought maybe this is what he was using. I made a big assumption, oops!

November 7th, 2003, 07:34 PM	#21
Marc Young Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 112	Well, you guys convinced me to buy a pro monitor and not rely on my lcd. There goes another $1500 ... for a Sony PVM-8045Q.

November 9th, 2003, 12:30 AM	#22
Brad Simmons Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Washington DC Posts: 304	<<<-- Originally posted by Marc Young : Well, you guys convinced me to buy a pro monitor and not rely on my lcd. There goes another $1500 ... for a Sony PVM-8045Q. -->>> Great little monitor. You'll be happy with it.

November 9th, 2003, 02:52 AM	#23
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Is it safe to by an 8045 now? Don't you need an 8045QD with SDI? And will these work with the rumored HDV mini-cams (XL2 elsewhere on this site). I recently shot with an SDX900 and the video viewed as SDI was different than the video viewed through the monitor port.

November 9th, 2003, 06:00 PM	#24
John Hartney Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Elgin, Illinois Posts: 206	Hi Chris, I agree with the consensus that a monitor is the best referance for video lighting. But, I use a Sekonic L-398M Studio Deluxe II - Analog Incident and Reflected Light Meter to check for drops in level on large sets. I'll use it as a final confirmation to check where levels change on a set. Camera zebra pattens are useful for judging exposure on a given frame, but when a large area must be set checked, and you have talent working a stage where the director wants a uniform light over a large area, a meter is the best choice for the final check imho. Best, John Hartney werks.tv Elgin, Illinois 847.608.1357

November 18th, 2003, 01:37 PM	#28
Alain Aguilar Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Bergen Posts: 170	I'll go for the FT 5.6 and try to level the light accordingly. __________________ Alain

November 18th, 2003, 09:24 PM	#29
Brad Horner New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Berkeley, California Posts: 19	I'm new at this so bear with me. Wouldn't it make sense for a DV to be able to use color correction from your NLE, for example Adobe rbg? Plug your monitor into your NLE and get it corrected to something standardized. This is a big stretch. How about connecting the monitor to a pc/mac and have some software look at your monitor while you are viewing footage. It would show color bars, right? This might be the case of a newbie stretching too far for a solution that can be handled easier somehow.

November 18th, 2003, 10:03 PM	#30
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I'm not sure what you're trying to solve. There are hardware calibrators for monitors. They are fairly expensive, so most editors use SMPTE color bars to calibrate NTSC monitors. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors