On-camera lights that use MR16?

[Marcus Marchesseault]

I'm thinking of getting an on-camera light and replacing the lamp with a warm white LED MR16 lamp. It seems that the MR16 is the only lamp that crosses over from professional to consumer use. The problem is that I am still having trouble finding pro camera lights that use the MR16 but I believe some Anton Bauer lights take this size. My questions are:

What on-camera lights use MR16 lamps?

and

Is the MR16 lamp also referred to as something like a "BAB" or "EVW" socket type?

It seems that GX5.3 may be the actual socket type, but I'm still a bit confused. If you have recommendations, I would prefer to stick with just the light and a relatively low budget. I'll probably put together a 12v battery pack myself.

[Gary Moses]

Marcus, I use the Mr-16's for all kinds of on and off camera lighting. They come in 20 to 50 watts halogen at home depot so they're not difficult to find. I stopped using the halogen and replaced everything with leds. They run cooler are daylight balanced and are very powerful depending how you have them configured. Oh by the way, they're 12 volt also but they draw only about 20% of amps of a halogen. I have been making a variey of led lights and I am blown away on the power, softness, compactness, color and how long they operate on battery power.
Gary

[Simon Hunt]

Check out Cool-Lux (www.cool-lux.com) They use MR-16's in some of there products.

[Marcus Marchesseault]

Okay, I was able to extrapolate what I need to know by poring over the products at B&H and reading articles on other web sites (most from dvinfo members). Here are the pro lights that use MR16 lamps that may be suitable for use with consumer LED lights:

NRG Versalite
Anton Bauer Ultralight-2
Cool-Lux Mini-Cool
Frezzolini Mini-Fill (Micro-Fill uses MR-11 lamps)

There are many lamp types like "BAB" but the socket seems to be called GX5.3 or GU5.3. I think the "5.3" is the number of millimeters between the two pins. The three-letter codes seem to describe particular models with different wattages.

The LED MR-16s don't put out the same lumens as the more powerful halogen models, but they use a fraction of the wattage. It seems that Gary has hit upon the brightest MR-16 in the 3x1-watt models. Since LEDs lose efficiency at higher wattages, the 5W LEDs are actually slightly dimmer than the 3x1W model.

Here is what I plan to try:

A friend of mine has an NRG light that should use MR16 lamps. I have ordered a 3x1-watt WARM white LED from an online auction site. It is only 135 lumens since the warm white LEDs are less efficient than the daylight models. I'm guessing I'll end up needing a two-lamp setup but at least I'll have something to try soon with the one I ordered. I may end up creating a DIY solution since I will have some free time soon. Perhaps I will buy a cheap track light to cannibalize the lamp holder and attach it to a shoe adapter with ball joint and 1/4 x 20 thread mount.

I am going to start with warm white since I will need this mostly for weddings. I think it will be easier to start with warm white and add a little CTO to make the light the same color as dimmed ballroom lights. I also have a theory that using a light matched to amber dimmed lights will be more pleasing to the eyes of the subject. I seem to recall that low frequencies have less effect on night vision so maybe the lack of blue will not make people squint so much when I put them in the spotlight. Another advantage of the LED is that I will be able to use gels or a cheap inflatable softbox with them since they won't get hot enough to melt plastic.

[Simon Hunt]

Check out the new Light Panels "Micro". For about $350 it looks pretty good to me. It should be available later this month. Daylight LED's with a CTO gel for use with tungsten lighting, plus a full dimmer to adjust it to whatever light level you are dealing with. Runs on 4 "AA" batteries for about 1.5 hours. I'm ordering one soon.

www.s131567196.onlinehome.us/products/micro.asp

[Gary Moses]

Marcus, your right the warm whites do put out less lumens. I chose the 5500K version because it's easier for me to have daylight to start with and cto it when neccessary. Just a note I have put 11 of the cree 1 watts in a case with a switch that turns on either 5 or or all 11. There is absolutley NO comparison to the commercially made on camera led lights. These things only put out a marignally usable light at a few feet and they are 3 or 4 hundred dollars at the cheapest. Make sure you get the cree versions. The 1 watt cree is more powerful than the 3 watt prolight. They will cost about $38 a piece though. I also have a single in a housing and a 5 with a switch for 1 bulb or 5. That one is for use on camera as well. By the way I found that the project boxes at Radio Shack are the best housings, they're a few bucks and are easy to work with.
Gary

[Marcus Marchesseault]

Simon, I saw that link from another thread and the Micro does look interesting. It seems fairly bright and full dimming capability is a nice feature. At $350 it is also closer to what I would consider a reasonable price. A thousand bucks for a single panel of LEDs is a bit much, but $350 for a professional product isn't so bad.

Gary, I got the 3x1Watt CREE MR16 which looks like the ones you have except for the color temperature. In another post you quote them as 3x3W at 240 lumens but the 3x1W daylights are 240 lumens. I could not find 3x3W CREE but there was a 5W CREE but it has less output than the 3-LED model. I seem to recall Richard Andrewski saying that LEDs decrease in efficiency as they get higher wattage. I noticed that you have fixtures with 4 of them together and you can turn off half when necessary. I am hoping that a single will be at least somewhat useful and two will be as bright as a 20W halogen MR16. By any chance have you compared the LED lamps to a 20W halogen?

[Gary Moses]

Your very right about the wattage claims in the original posts. I have been on a quest to find the most powerful and effective lights. It appears that there are 3 manufacturers of these type of lights. Cree, Prolight and Edison. I originally bought the 3x3watt prolights and used them in my first system. Although the prolights are very bright (a single 3x3watt is at least as bright as a 20 watt halogen) they is no comparison to the 3x1watt cree. Wow!
Here is an example of the difference. (5) 3x3watt prolights draw .87 amps at 12 volts. (5) 3x1 watt Cree draws 2.3 amps at 12 volts.
The difference is the amount of electronics that drive and regulate the leds. When I put 11 crees in my new box I had to put in a switch to choose between 5 or the full 11. You cannot use the full 11 closer than about 10 to 15 feet.

[Marcus Marchesseault]

"Although the prolights are very bright (a single 3x3watt is at least as bright as a 20 watt halogen) they is no comparison to the 3x1watt cree."

If the daylight cree are noticeably brighter than a 20W halogen, then the warm white should be close. That is all that I need. I tested a 20W halogen with my V1 in low-light configuration and I had about an extra f-stop of exposure with no gain. I was actually quite pleased with the output from the 20W halogen at 10 feet. That little reflector really helps. If the single cree can match that output, I can use a small softbox (which soaks up 1 1/4 f-stops) with little or no gain. I am only looking for a little fill to get just enough exposure of something like the couple doing their first dance at a dimmed ballroom. I usually get within 10-12 feet and there are always some sort of lights (like the DJ's) in the vicinity. I just need a little fill and half the output of a 20W halogen MR16 would be just fine.

I noticed the rough look of your wood LED boxes and thought a Radio Shack project box would be a nice upgrade. It's funny that you have already thought of that. If I find that I need more MR16 LEDs, I'll just DIY a new fixture.

Are you saying that you have made a fixture with eleven (11) of the 3x1W cree MR16s? That is a whole lot of lamps! What are you planning to do with a fixture like that? Surely it is too big for an on-camera light, yes?

[Gary Moses]

Yeah the wood boxes were just to make sure it was worth it to proceed. Yes there are 11 cree's in one box, but the size is only 8 inches by 6 or so. That one is NOT an on-camera but it can flood an entire room.
I actually made a few. I have single for on-camera, a 5 that is also for on-camera or stand mount, the 11 which is stand mount only and a ring light with 4 leds on the 4 points of a square.
Over the years I have become tired of the downside of halogens. The heat, electrcic draw, the color transition to daylight, etc. So I've been seaching for a solution for a long time.
I also now use CFL's in fixtures to accomplish the same thing. I've been very happy with these changes.
The LED technology is changing so rapidly that I feel badly for the companies that have so much invested in products that are obsolete already. Cree has made a single 4 watt led (for flashlights) that will blow you away. I have 2 that run on 2 c-cells.
By the way, keep in mind that you can order the leds with different beam spreads, from 20 degress to 60 or more. A wider beam spread might be what you are looking for. My personal approach is to use daylight balanced and 30 degree spread. That gives me the punch when I need it. Daylight is easier for me to convert to tungsten then the other way around.
Gary

[Marcus Marchesseault]

I think I may have chosen the warm white model at first because interiors lit by incandescent is where I need the extra fill. I am/was concerned that the nature of LEDs are that they generate fairly specific frequencies and maybe it is better to start with color closer to what I need. What I need is ~2000K to match dimmed ballroom lights so I will already be using half CTO on the warm white. Of course, I may be completely wrong about this and a daylight LED with full plus half CTO may be better than a warm white with half CTO. In any case, if these lights are about as bright as a 20W halogen I will be making a daylight version and maybe a few extra to act as super-portable hard lights to work as backlights and background with a big fluorescent as the key in interviews or individual performances. Fluorescents don't make good hard lights and I like having the option to run on batteries with these LEDs.

[Gary Moses]

Yep. That makes sense. I do a lot of "in the field" recordings so anything that is quick, light weight and portable is my friend. By the way I use the CFL's on battery frequently. Since each 100 watt output draws only 23 watts, I can run 400 watts of light on a 100 watt inverter connected to a small 12 volt battery.
Gary