I'm Sold on 60p Video

[J. Stephen McDonald]

I've posted two unedited video clips for comparison on my Vimeo album, that show moving traffic. The first was shot in 1920 X 1080 60p at 28 Mbps and the second was shot in 60i at 24 Mbps, both in AVCHD. The 60p version has smooth motion with no fluttering and is more pleasant to view. After seeing this comparison, I will most often shoot in 60p.

You have to download the full uploaded files and play them on a good program with your computer, to see a fair comparison. With Vimeo's heavy compression, the 60i video looks very jerky, although the 60p version seems much smoother. The 60i video has only minor motion flaws when I play it from the full file.

I have a quad-core CPU and prefer Splash Lite for playback. I have no trouble editing the 60p video on AVS Video Editor 5.2 and rendering it into MP4 at 16 Mbps, which looks indistinguishable from the unedited camera recording.

I shot these with a Sony HX100V. I've had it only a few days and have much to learn about using it. It cost me $360. with a 10%-off coupon. The 60p video is currently at the top of my Vimeo album and the 60i video is right after it. The URL is in my Signature line.

Here are three photos showing my HX100V on my shoulder mount. One of them shows my rainy weather attachment and another shows a Raynox DCR-2020PRO 2.2X telextender on a lens adaptor tube I made.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Great price on the HX100 - they are going for way more at the moment since they are hard to find! The 60p on the top of the line P&S Sonys looks pretty good from samples I've seen (waiting on a TX100 myself at the moment...). I just played back over Vimeo, and there was some odd motion stutter, still looked pretty impressive for a sub $500 camera with video as a "secondary" function!

I liked the HX1 a lot, sold it to finance other upgrades, may have to track one of these down (if I can find at your price, definitely!).

[J. Stephen McDonald]

Thanks, Dave. If you liked the HX1, you'll probably be happy with an HX100V, although they have very different responses to settings. I usually lock the ISO at 100 on the HX100V and then 160 to 200 late in the evening. It shoots cleaner photos than the HX1, so I can set the NR on the Low position. It doesn't need to have the EV moved down as much as most Sony cameras and camcorders. It has an auto ND-filter mode, but most people choose to turn that off as it can interfere with the ISO and EV levels. The HD vid-caps work well on PMB. I've posted one below, from the 60p traffic video.

The playback directly on Vimeo of my 60i traffic video looks very bad, with lots of stuttering. Played on my computer with Splash Lite, there's only a few minor quivers and a small general lack of clarity on fast-moving subjects. The 60p video looks fairly smooth on Vimeo, but not as steady and sharp as it does on my computer.

The place I bought the HX100V has a couple of Bs in its name. They often have 10%-off offers on printable coupons, if you search for them online. I was tipped by people on another forum about a Sony bag and battery "value pack" combination, where they sold an NP-FH50 battery and a neat little Sony ballistic-cloth bag for $9.99. I got three of them and you'd ordinarily have to pay $45. to $50. for the battery alone.

[Scott Thomas Anderson]

I hate to be a stickler, but the AVCHD codec doesn't support 60p, so they cannot both be AVCHD.

That being said, I watched both files after downloading totally blind (I didn't know which was which), and I was hard pressed to say "this one was better". When push came to shove, I chose the 60p but really, would The Matrix have been a bad film if you saw a few artifacts?

Still, 60p is a very nice and flexible frame rate in which to shoot.

[Dan Asseff]

Scott my new FS100 does. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/761580-REG/Sony_NEX_FS100UK_NEX_FS100U_Super_35mm_Sensor.html I'm not sure were you get your information.

Dan

[Scott Thomas Anderson]

Moderator note: to comply with the Wikipedia TOS and U.S. copyright law, be informed that the source of this information is the AVCHD page of wikipedia.com:

In the professional and prosumer markets, AVCHD camcorders such as the Panasonic AG-HMC150, the Panasonic AG-HMC40, the Sony HDR-AX2000 and the Sony HXR-NX5U, are capable of recording in all three high definition formats: 1080i, 1080p and 720p. Sony camcorders do not support film-like frame rates — 24p, 25p, 30p — in 720p mode.

In the consumer market, 60 Hz variants of some Canon, Panasonic and Sony models are capable of recording native 1080p24 video.

In 2010, Panasonic introduced a new lineup of consumer AVCHD camcorders with 1080-line 50p/60p progressive-scan mode (frame rate depending on region).[19] While this mode is not compliant with current AVCHD specification, it uses the same compression schemes for video and audio, the same container files and the same folder structure as AVCHD-compliant recordings.[20] Panasonic advised that not all players that support AVCHD playback could play 1080-line 50p/60p video.[21]

In 2011 Sony introduced consumer and professional AVCHD models also capable of 1080-line 50p/60p video recording. Like Panasonic, Sony uses AVCHD folder structure and container files for storing video, with the same maximum bitrate of 28 Mbit/s.

Sanyo was the first to offer 1080-line 50p/60p recording format in a consumer device with bitrates up to 24 Mbit/s, but Sanyo used MP4 container instead of AVCHD container to store video. Starting from 2011 JVC offers 1080-line 50p/60p recording as well with bitrates up to 36 Mbit/s, storing video in MP4 container.

Panasonic models have no special marks for progressive-scan capability. Canon models, capable of native 24p recording, have a prominent 24p Native Progressive mark.[22] Sony models capable of 50p/60p recording or of 24p recording are also identified with appropriate marks.

I get my info from the defenition of AVCHD? It's sort of AVCHD but not. Again, being a stickler.

[Dan Asseff]

Scott I own a NX5 and it does not do 60p. Here is the info on dpreview about his camera"The DSC-HX100V and DSC-HX9V Cyber-shot cameras are the company’s first compact digital still cameras to include a 27mm Carl Zeiss® Vario-Sonar T* lens with 30x optical zoom and a 24mm Sony® G lens with 16x optical zoom (respectively) combined with full HD (1920 x 1080/60p) video capability. " I don't want to get in to a pissing contest, 60p is being shot in a AVCHD codec.

Dan

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Scott Thomas Anderson

I get my info from the defenition of AVCHD? It's sort of AVCHD but not. Again, being a stickler.

Wikipedia is *not* the official definition of *anything.* However, if you're going to refer to it, then you need to actually reference that source in your post, per their terms of service.

There's only one valid source for the AVCHD format, and that's the consortium's official web site located at http://www.avchd-info.org (and certainly not Wikipedia). And while 1080p60 isn't listed as part of the original AVCHD specification, it really is a legitimate variant from one of that format's founders, just as Frame mode was to HDV via Canon. So this is pretty much a non-issue, except to say that sources need to be referenced when quoted. Thanks,

[Arnie Schlissel]

The .h264 codec, which is supported by AVCHD, supports 1080p60, even though AVCHD does not. So, there's no reason why a camera can't record 1080p60 in .h264, even though it's not supported by the AVCHD spec.

[Scott Thomas Anderson]

Wow, you have to say you're refering to wikipedia now? You're a free website Wikipedia. News to me... seems a little unnecessary but okay. Should I do a bibliography too?

And right, h.264 and 60p are best of friends. It's just not technically AVCHD is all I'm saying.

All of this is really moot. I wasn't trying to start an argument. I'll just retract my statement and we can move along.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Free, and worth every penny... or not... but if they have TOS, you should follow them, and it is appropriate to properly link attributed information, out of respect for the site owners.

As for AVCHD/60p, Both Panasonic and Sony are offering 60p in cameras under the AVCHD label, I believe they are both part of the group that establishes the standards? Good enough for me, and trumps any "internet expert opinion". There is a high degree of likelyhood that 60p will become the new "best", for a little while at least, until something better comes along, either within the existing format, or in a new one altogether.

Technology changes very fast, digital formats are often changing, even "standards" don't last very long anymore, as companies try to keep ahead of the curve.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Scott Thomas Anderson

Wow, you have to say you're refering to wikipedia now?

When you make a post to this forum that contains words that you didn't write, especially when they're lifted from a source whose TOS says "provide credit back to us if you re-distribute our text," then yes, you have to say you're referring to Wikipedia. It's not only common courtesy and the right thing to do, but an expectation here as well. I don't understand why I have to point out the obvious, but there it is.

[J. Stephen McDonald]

If I may interrupt the discussion that has developed, I'd like to mention that I've loaded another 1080 60p video from my Sony HX100V onto Vimeo. This one was shot 12 minutes after sunset on an overcast day. I'm pleased at the way it held its autofocus in the dim light. I will proceed to shoot some videos with this camera in the coming days that have more substantial content, now that these test videos have been presented.

HX100V--1080 60p 12 Minutes After Sunset Unedited on Vimeo

[Scott Thomas Anderson]

Originally Posted by J. Stephen McDonald

If I may interrupt the discussion that has developed, I'd like to mention that I've loaded another 1080 60p video from my Sony HX100V onto Vimeo.

What settings were you shooting (ISO, Shudder)? It's a little noisey but good brightness.

And I appologize for my part in getting your thread off topic. It was certainly not my intention.

[J. Stephen McDonald]

The video mode on the HX100V can have its EV setting changed, but everything else is auto-set by the camera. I assume that it's using a 1/60-sec. shutter, like other photo cameras. The ISO level is auto only, although the camera does a good job of handling low-light situations. You'd have to expect some noise in dark areas, when the light is this dim. I think that my Sony HX1 is a little better with low-light videos, however. You can check out the pages of my Vimeo album and see many videos I shot with the HX1 in very limited light.

Next, I plan to find some good subjects in full daylight and experiment with using my Raynox 2.2X telextender with the HX100V.