Canon EOS Rebel T1i D-SLR with HD

[Bill Koehler]

Originally Posted by Damon Lim

Rob Galbraith DPI: HD video capture, 15MP sensor in Canon EOS Rebel T1i

I've found the one benefit to 1080p20.

My Intel Q6600 can play it. The 1080p30 from the 5D2 is the only one that won't play nicely.
Any advice anyone?

[Nathan Troutman]

Originally Posted by Matt Buys

Take it easy fellas. Waiting on the sidelines to buy your next cam doesn't mean you're not producing and creating. It just means the technology you want in a camera for the price range you want isn't there yet.
From what I see, a great cam is just around the bend and if what you're using now suffices I'd wait. One quick question though. One poster mentioned the canon 5dmkII blew the HV20 out of the water. That's mainly what I use with a letus. I have a ton of old nikon glass so I'm chomping at the bit to get the canon but I'm waiting at least until it supports 24p. In good light does the 5dmkII really blow the HV20 out of the water?

I think the biggest thing that most everyone completely glosses over when comparing adapted camcorder set-ups to the 5D is ease of use. I've been using 35mm adapters for several years now. They were a great stepping stone and allowed us to capture images not possible before they were created. But consider the sacrifices to make this happen. Take an already slow HV20 and then strap-on some more additional light loss, double the weight, double if not triple the length.

I used to say the indie filmmaker was forced to work even harder than the normal filmmaker from a lighting perspective. Because the indie guy was working with a camera and 35mm adapter set-up that forced him to need a much larger light package and almost always shoot wide open in his 35mm lenses. It should be the reverse. I remember how fun it was to shoot with the VX-2000 back in the day because it was so sensitive.

Being able to shoot with a 5D in such a small, simple & sensitive package dramatically increases the ability of no budget indie shoots to pull off their productions. Now you can have a limited lighting package, 35mm depth of field, a light run and gun camera and the ability to stop down you lens when you want to. It's the closest thing to having the same creative choices that the big guys have.

24P would be great but I've been doing these conversions for years. It's not an impossible thing to convert to this standard. In my experience it is far more important to have a 35mm DOF and good cinematography than to just have 24P. I think it's long overdue for Hollywood to bump up the frame-rate of film. What I would really love is for some gutsy director out there to say 24P be damned and shoot at 30P, 48P or 60P. Let's see if the film watching public would really mutiny and not watch it.

Home projectors and HDTVs are now shipping with a new frame interpolation mode that tries to "fix" 24P so that it doesn't appear so juddery. It does this by creating new frames in between the actual 24 frames. Seems to me that the general public is ready to move on to something better.

[Paulo Teixeira]

Originally Posted by Bill Koehler

I've found the one benefit to 1080p20.

My Intel Q6600 can play it. The 1080p30 from the 5D2 is the only one that won't play nicely.
Any advice anyone?

Make sure your computer is set on maximum performance.
The less stuff you have open the better and that includes web pages.
As for software solutions, download a free trial of CoreAVC and/or Nero.

[Matt Buys]

Nathan, yes, I'm lugging alot of gear and lights too. I'm a cheap bastard at heart and waited out through the A1 because I didn't feel like it offered THAT much more than the HV20 in good light. But these new 35mm, well, er, I will bite as soon as shooting 24p is a viable alternative. I'm actually hoping the next canon will have adjustable frame rate that I can overcrank because I shoot sports too.

Friends of mine have had success converting the canon's 30 to 24p but they're all on final cut. Is that what you're using? I'm on CS3 and Cineform aspect and not sure there's a good way to do the conversion.

[Nathan Troutman]

Matt, sorry I didn't get back to you right away. But yes I'm on FCP. It's the main reason I stay on Apple hardware. Final Cut Studio 2 (the most recent version) is the best version of the entire software package ever and I've been using it since the very beginning. It really gives you so much creative control. (It's due for an update supposedly coming around NAB.) Pro-Res is an outstanding intermediate codec and serves the role of cineform on the PC side except that Pro-Res comes with the package standard. I'd highly recommend the switch, but I understand the costs involved.

The best thing I think we can hope for from Canon is what they're going to do with the rumored firmware update that's coming in April. I don't hold out much hope for 24P, but surely we'll get full manual control. However, maybe the announcement of the Panasonic GH1 might prompt Canon to offer 24P. Plus there is a gaping whole around the $1500 price range for another Canon product. I think they've realized what they stumbled on with the 5DMKII because they still can't make enough of them to keep them on the shelves. The 5D is a BIG BIG deal. It is a revolutionary product and it's completely changed everything. I know the T1i isn't everything everyone wants but the price is pretty wow!

[Xavier Plagaro]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

"Coarse words" would never fly on DV Info Net, and Jon knows that.

The typical internet experience is all about being personally insulted and flaunting your righteous indignation over perceived injustices such as this consumer D-SLR. However, this site is definitely *not* the typical internet experience. Hopefully that's why Jon and so many others choose to post here.

Of course, Chris!!! I am glad this is a forum full of people not strange nicks and little education!!! ;-DDDD

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Have you looked at the clips? I can't help but get the feeling that some of you guys are judging this thing sight unseen.

Yes. By locking down he avoided camera movement. By shooting as he did he minimized the motion vectors of moving objects. Even so, the moving cars strobe badly. Thus, if soccer moms stay far up in the stands all will be fine. But, a soccer dad who shoots at the edge of the field with a tele, will not be thrilled with the results.

Moreover, anyone who shot 8mm at approximately 18fps knows what a 20fps frame-rate looks like. And, when the HD1 came-out with 720p30 it was panned by every reviewer because of the horrible judder. That's vastly faster than 20fps.

Of course, for those who want a film-look AND know how to shoot it, 24p is acceptable. But, I doubt even the most ardent film-look fanatic would try to shoot as slow as 20fps.

But it's not just frame-rate. A 180-degree shutter will be 1/40th second. Motion blur will degrade the image.

But, it gets worse. To overcome motion judder with 720p30, many resorted to a 1/30th second rather than 1/60th second shutter. Unfortunately, motion blur then degraded the image so much it looked like SD. If folks try this with 20fps, there will be nothing but blur as soon as anything moves with a 1/20th shutter.

HOWEVER -- Canon may have chosen 20fps for a reason. In theory, 20fps can indeed capture motion. And, 1/30th may be an ideal shutter-speed as it sits evenly between 1/20th and 1/40th. So the amount of motion blur may be "just right" to be generally acceptable.

But what about judder? 30p judder (strobing) is really an eye-tracking artifact. It comes from repeating the same frame twice when viewing at 60i or 60p. In theory, the perception of judder might be less if the same frame were repeated three times.

To get 20fps to 60i (and hence to 60p) -- which is going to be necessary for any HDTV -- each frame will have to be repeated 3 times as three fields. (I have no idea how NLEs will treat 20fps, but HDTVs aren't going to play 20fps. Something is going to have to add pulldown. In fact pulldown will be needed to get 20fps out of the HDMI port.)

If any of my speculation is true, Canon may have exploited our vision system. And, this would explain why no PAL version. No way to divide 50 fields by 3. (Of course, the 720p mode should have offered 720p25.)

PS: Having used a DSLR with a non-articulated LCD, I find having to hold the camera exactly at eye level a royal pain. And, who wants every shot at eye level? The GH1 -- which isn't going to $2000 since the G1 is less than half that -- is far more video shooting friendly.

[Michael Murie]

There's an interesting interview with Chuck Westfall, technical adviser for Canon's professional products marketing division, over on cnet.com
Q&A: Canon helps usher in the video SLR era | Underexposed - CNET News

He talks about the future - in general terms - and really trys to sell that it's the early days of video on DSLR's, and Canon's still trying to figure out what to do (and yes, they know about the people that want more manual controls....)

Interesting days ahead. Meanwhile, I can't wait to see what Nikon has up their sleves with the new DSLR with articulating LCD screen that's been photographed while they were making an ad for it!

If you can, waiting is probably the best thing to do if you're thinking of buying a D-SLR primarily for video...next year could bring even more exciting advances.

[Chris Barcellos]

Interesting Q & A. For me, it puts a real human face on Canon for first time. But it also confirms what is apparent at this point-- Canon won't be offering any change on the 5D II, to give us more control over the camera during video shooting.

[Mark Holmes]

Well, then I guess the money put aside for my 5D purchase will be held until May or June for the Panasonic GH1. A shame, because I prefer Canon for the availability of lenses and the image quality. But given that I am buying it almost solely for the video capabilities, the non-24p is a deal-breaker for me. As an indpendent filmmaker, the problems caused down the line for conversion to 24p, and even more so, for 25p for PAL distribution, make the 5D MKII a no-go.

Extremely frustrating. Extremely.

[Chad Dyle]

I'm with Nathan. I've owned a 35mm adapter and for weddings with only 1 person at the Prep, it can be rough. If you are not 100% with the adapter and miss the shot, its over. I think the ease of use (and you this makes more sense if you have setup a 35mm adapter) and package size are what make these cameras so appealing to us. I've been dealing with my D90 for 6 months now and I'm only using it for detail shots at this point. If I didn't own so much Nikon glass, I would have purchased the Canon (5D, I need those extra frames) already.
I guess the next few months will have a lot of stuff that will interest us. I'm about to start trolling the Red forums again to see what the Scarlet will bring. I know it is way over the price range of what we are currently looking at, but there might be a few extras that make it worth it.

[Nathan Troutman]

Originally Posted by Mark Holmes

Well, then I guess the money put aside for my 5D purchase will be held until May or June for the Panasonic GH1. A shame, because I prefer Canon for the availability of lenses and the image quality. But given that I am buying it almost solely for the video capabilities, the non-24p is a deal-breaker for me. As an indpendent filmmaker, the problems caused down the line for conversion to 24p, and even more so, for 25p for PAL distribution, make the 5D MKII a no-go.

Extremely frustrating. Extremely.

Mark as much as I'm frustrated by the limitations of the 5D I think everyone seems to ignore the issues with the GH1 simply because it gives them the holy grail of 24P. The GH1 is not a FF chip and the current lens selection for this micro 4/3rds format is pretty sad. Sure you can put on normal 35mm lenses with adapters but you lose any auto functions of the auto lenses for stills. I guess for the indie-film guys they're already planning on manual nikons so they don't care. But they're are a lot of questions I need answered before I'm going to crown the GH1. Most notably is some amazing footage. I know the 5D can create some unbelievable shots.

And of course don't think for a second that Canon or Nikon are done. More models are coming. Nikon has the most to gain by getting it all right since they don't have a video division.

[Bill Koehler]

Originally Posted by Nathan Troutman

And of course don't think for a second that Canon or Nikon are done. More models are coming. Nikon has the most to gain by getting it all right since they don't have a video division.

Amen. But I think Canon is the closest to being there, going by what they've released so far. In particular, I find it hard to believe Canon came up with a 38 - 42 Mbps AVCHD codec engine so it could spend its life inside something where video is a relative afterthought. Even the T1i leaves the original consumer spec. of ~24 Mbps behind. I can't believe the video side of the company isn't jumping on that with new product.

[Yang Wen]

Originally Posted by Michael Murie

There's an interesting interview with Chuck Westfall, technical adviser for Canon's professional products marketing division, over on cnet.com
Q&A: Canon helps usher in the video SLR era | Underexposed - CNET News

He talks about the future - in general terms - and really trys to sell that it's the early days of video on DSLR's, and Canon's still trying to figure out what to do (and yes, they know about the people that want more manual controls....)

Even though the reasoning for lack of manual is weak. Can't really blame Chuck as he is simply communication the corporate stance. I'm almost positive it only requires a simple coding change to allow manual control for video. It could be as simple as VideoManualControlFlag = FALSE; (or something along that line)

[Steve Mullen]

While 1080p20 plays smoothly in an NLE or QT Player where the LCD update rate is 60Hz as I expected -- there may be a problem when it's output in a conventional 1080p30 movie.

The capture sampling rate of 20fps seems to interact with the 30fps movie rate which is then played at 30fps by repeating each frame twice to match the LCD rate of 60Hz. Looks like every other frame is duplicated. This cadence is then repeated twice.

ABCD >> AABCCD >> AAAABBCCCCDD

To get smooth playback your NLE may need to truly output at 20fps so the final playback is 3X at 60Hz.

I'm not sure all NLE can be set to have a 20fps Timeline.