Canon EOS Rebel T1i D-SLR with HD

[Dylan Couper]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

What frustrates me (and I think most others arguing that way) is that on the face of it some basic & useful extras seem entirely possible and voluntarily left out. Why not just 4 frames/sec more and even PAL land would be happy. Why not have exposure and shutter being locked to a setting if desired (costs nothing, because the setting is there it just gets overridden). Seems so little to ask for.

It looks like a deliberate choice to cripple the functionality.

As a 5D2 owner, I feel your frustration!

The 20fps baffles me too if it isn't processing related. Maybe they didnt put 24p into it so all the 5D2 owners wouldn't raise hell. :)

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

Maybe people will get the point better if we turn it into a car analogy...hey've completely missed the market and blown the fantastic opportunity to create a F1 ready Focus!

Actually the car analogy points out the issue well. The video mode is like one of those fake sportcar sidings, spoiler etc. - it's "looks" sporty but is fact an econobox engine and suspension. The video mode in T1i will please nobody at 1080, consumer, prosumer or pro and the 720 mode lacks autofocus, stereo mic and articulating LCD for consumers and 24p, audio input etc. for pros.

All Canon gets is "we have 1080p HD video!" in their marketing blurbs but the video in this model seems a lot like a dealer installed option and not factory engineering.

[Tony Tibbetts]

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

Maybe people will get the point better if we turn it into a car analogy...

Can you believe that Ford didn't put a 600hp twin turbo V8 in the new Focus? Those idiots don't know what they are doing... Once again their commuter car division didn't communicate with the needs of their race division... They've completely missed the market and blown the fantastic opportunity to create a F1 ready Focus!

Actually, that's not very accurate.

We know that it can do 1080p20 and 720p30. We also know they can scan their chips at 1080p30 (5DmkII) Whether this is due to the Digic IV processor or not I do not know. Regardless of that we do know there are many chips on the market with lesser specs that can scan at 1080p30

I'm guessing that this chip is perfectly capable of 1080p30, 1080p24, 720p30, 720p24, etc...

That being said, a more apt analogy would be a speed limiter on an engine. Some cars can easily reach speeds of 120 mph, yet limiters keep the car below 95mph. This is more or less due to driver safety concerns.

Since there are no human lives are at stake, the only logical conclusion is the protection of the companies bottom line.

The camera is capable, but Canon has implemented a limiter. In my opinion they've done it deliberately.

I don't think any amount of complaints by customers is going to change that.

I'm guessing they will open up the manual controls (to some degree) on the 5DmkII in the near future to keep a certain demographic of people (i.e. us) from purchasing this Rebel T1i instead.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Tony Tibbetts

...Canon has implemented a limiter. In my opinion they've done it deliberately.

When have they ever *not* done that? When have they ever *not* stratified their product line. Why does this come as such a surprise to some folks -- how is this any different from their previous history, or that of any major Japanese electronics manufacturer, for that matter?

And Dylan's analogy is indeed perfectly accurate. We know Ford can put a 600hp twin turbo V8 in the new Focus. Their decision not to do so was deliberate. Some people are outraged by how badly Ford has misread the market... others never expected such a thing to happen in the first place. It applies here equally well.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

It's *not* an undercrank because the playback speed is the same as the acquisition speed... you can't have an undercrank or an overcrank unless there's a difference between the recording and playback speeds. That doesn't apply here, though.

That's really up to the editor, not the camera.

I'm producing a video for the music store where my daughter works. Vimeo is the intended target. It's all shot at 30p, but I'm stretching it to 24p to avoid dropped frames. Since the video shows the store and the instruments, rather than people/dialog, it looks perfectly natural.

If I had shot this with the T1i, I'd have the option of speeding up to 24fps, or just leaving it at 20fps. Vimeo should handle both just fine.

However, if I were shooting Ninja moves in a low budget action film, I'd definitely speed it up to 24fps. I'd do the same with the HVX or Scarlet. Nobody really believes that Jackie Chan is as fast as he looks in on the screen, do they? :)

[Tony Tibbetts]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

When have they ever *not* done that? When have they ever *not* stratified their product line. Why does this come as such a surprise to some folks -- how is this any different from their previous history, or that of any major Japanese electronics manufacturer, for that matter?

I'm not surprised. Just making a bit of a rhetorical point to elaborate my limiter analogy.

I have a tendency to ramble...

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

That's really up to the editor, not the camera.

Ah so... back in the old days, it certainly *was* up to the camera (camera operator, that is). That's where the term comes from, after all! But I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of this camera's buyers are not going to edit their video, just like they're not editing the video from their consumer camcorders. At least not to the point of speed ramping anyway...

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

...But I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of this camera's buyers are not going to edit their video, just like they're not editing the video from their consumer camcorders. At least not to the point of speed ramping anyway...

They definitely won't be doing speed ramping, but lots of people edit these days - especially since the CF card won't plug into their DVD players.

On the other hand, once they see the slow decodes of the native MOV files (not knowing about Cineform), they might not try to edit twice! Actually, the second soccer game they shoot will probably be in 720 if not 480 for exactly that reason. And then 20fps is moot.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

...the CF card...

Actually on the Rebel T1i it's an SDHC card. Worth pointing out only because my Blu-Ray player, the very common Panasonic BD-35, includes an SDHC card slot (as does the PlayStation 3, etc.). The BD-35 will play back AVCHD video from any Canon or Panasonic AVCHD camcorder, but that's not what the Rebel T1i is. So it remains to be seen if there's any easy way to play back its video from anything other than the camera's own HDMI output. Is there a living room appliance that will playback an H.264 QuickTime .MOV from an SDHC card?

[Ethan Cooper]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

And then 20fps is moot.

actually I think 20fps renders 1080 in this camera moot by itself.

I'm very surprised they went for 20fps in 1080, I mean at that point why even offer 1080 at all? The only thing I can think of it that its targeted toward consumers who don't know anything about 20fps vs 24fps, but who will see the 1080 and think thats an automatic step up from the 720 that Nikon offers.

What I don't understand is the people who seem angry cause this camera isn't a cheaper 5D. Of course they aren't going to undercut their hot selling 5D by loading this thing up with all the "missing" features of the 5D's video mode. If you ever for one second thought they would you've been deluding yourself.

They've positioned it on par with or slightly better than (depending on how you look at it) the D90 and significantly under the 5D. Seems about right to me.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

I'm very surprised they went for 20fps in 1080, I mean at that point why even offer 1080 at all?

Have you looked at the clips? I can't help but get the feeling that some of you guys are judging this thing sight unseen.

[Tony Tibbetts]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Is there a living room appliance that will playback an H.264 QuickTime .MOV from an SDHC card?

The Western Digital WDTV may be able to play back these files. I hooked up a simple USB multi-card reader with a CF card from a 5DmkII and it was able to play back the files ...sort of.

It was stuttering and appeared to be choking on the bitrate a little.

What is the bitrate of the T1i files? Is it less than the .MOV files from the 5DmkII?

[Ethan Cooper]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Have you looked at the clips? I can't help but get the feeling that some of you guys are judging this thing sight unseen.

I have actually and 20fps looks like, well, 20fps. It's completely non-standard unless your standard is turn of the century silent films. Still seems like a very odd choice and at least and in my mind disqualifies this camera's 1080 mode from serious consideration.

Come on Chris, you'd really go to war with a 20fps mode?

To clarify, I've never expected this camera to be the 5D in a smaller package, and if it does 720 well then that would make sense to me for the price point.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

And Dylan's analogy is indeed perfectly accurate. We know Ford can put a 600hp twin turbo V8 in the new Focus.

No, I don't think his analogy is accurate at all - it's more than they've put the Ford Focus engine in a Smart Car and are marketing it as a twin turbo (1080p!).

Here's the way it went for me. I see the press release - 1080p video! Read the release - 20fps. Hmm, that must be a typo. Go watch clips, research online. No, it's really 20fps. Plus, the most of the clips are misleading - very static motion clips on tripod. Look at the one handheld clip on Gizmodo - that's just ugly. And wait for some handheld soccer game clips.

The truth is the T1i can only do 720p video and Nikon's "24p, same rate as professional film" is sexier marketing than 30p. So Canon put this 20fps mode mostly (if not entirely) for marketing and product positioning. It's certainly not on the camera to benefit any type of end user. Regardless of screen size, people will choose 720p over 1080p on this camera (except those people who want the same bragging rights).

[Dylan Couper]

Some people objected to my first car analogy. There were a few things off about it, so I'm going to rev it up so that it is a PERFECT representation of exactly what's going on here, and will be obvious to everyone but the most obtuse.

First, I'm going to switch from the Ford Focus to the Ford Mustang, because the Rebel really is the Mustang of cameras... very good performance (relative the glut of P&S cameras/Focuses/Camrys) for a very decent price (compared to "pro" slrs/Ferraris/Porsches).

SO...
What we have here is a Ford Mustang.... and Ford has decided to load it up with the engine of the Ford GT (the 550 Supercharged V8 form the GT = 15mp sensor of the 50d)! That's a hell of a lot of car for the buck, no one would disagree! They throw in the brakes, steering, suspension, etc... for the same price. Sure, a few features like the carbon fibre and ground effects are missing, but they do still need to sell GT's, right?

And even better... They keep it the same price as the old Mustang! Wow, all that for the same price? A year ago you'd have to pay multiple times the price for the same thing by buying the GT (or a 50D).

And then... Ford says... "Its time for an evolution! Lets see if we can make this a flying car... FOR THE SAME PRICE!" (in case you miss it, flying car = a platform leap across the still photo SLR to the HD full frame sensor video market - you know, like RED charges $20k for?)

So Ford somehow manages to make that 550hp V8 pump out 10,000lbs of thrust and has two flight modes... 720mph and 1080mph. The 720mph is clean and smooth, but the 1080mph mode has turbulence about 1/3rd of the time. But there's one big catch... You can only fly in AUTOPILOT mode... no full manual flying controls. You tweak it, set your destination, and push GO, then you sit back and just keep it pointed in the right direction... it takes care of the rest.

So... You get a 550hp, Mustang WITH FLIGHT MODE for the price of a normal V6 Mustang...

And all you can do is complain about the lack of full manual flight controls and some turbulence at 1080mph?!?!?!?!

A year ago, half the people on this forum would have killed for a APS-C 720p video camera without hesitation... and never would have believed the price tag of $800.