Canon EOS Rebel T1i D-SLR with HD

Jon Fairhurst · March 25th, 2009, 11:56 AM

The decision making at Canon is odd.

I can understand them making this a 720p camera. They consider 24p (like the D90), but they've already snubbed 24p on the 5D MkII, so they choose 30p. They realize that they've hosed the PAL market again, so they technically snub the NTSC market too by using 30.0 fps, rather than 29.97 fps. Finally, they realize that "1080p" can gain sales, but don't want to step on the 5D MkII, so they choose 20p.

So again, they've dissed the PAL market, ignored the demand for 24p, and given their customers a reason to buy more Nikon lenses and adapters (due to auto mode).

There's one thing they did get right though - the codec. It will beat the pants off of the codec in the D90 at 720p. It might just be editable, and if not, Cineform is likely to provide a solution before long. However, if the GH1 codec and processing are good, that camera threatens to be the budget HDSL(r) of choice.

Chris Hurd · March 25th, 2009, 12:11 PM

Dylan's right, of course... the Rebel series has always been targeted at consumers, even back in the Rebel G and Rebel X days, long before it ever went digital. The "soccer mom" is exactly who they're reaching out to in their marketing, see attached pic from the Winter 2007 EOS catalog...

These are the folks who will see nothing at all wrong with the T1i video clips on Rob Galbraith's site, linked above.

Chris Hurd · March 25th, 2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

...if the GH1 codec and processing are good, that camera threatens to be the budget HDSL(r) of choice.

That's why DV Info Net already has a LUMIX GH1 forum, but probably won't have a Rebel T1i forum.

Xavier Plagaro · March 25th, 2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

The decision making at Canon is odd.

Jon, I wish to had as good manners as you. I will put it with more "coarse" words... ;-DDDDD

Chris Hurd · March 25th, 2009, 12:40 PM

"Coarse words" would never fly on DV Info Net, and Jon knows that.

The typical internet experience is all about being personally insulted and flaunting your righteous indignation over perceived injustices such as this consumer D-SLR. However, this site is definitely *not* the typical internet experience. Hopefully that's why Jon and so many others choose to post here.

Kurth Bousman · March 25th, 2009, 12:40 PM

Well , Dylan but I beg to differ ! And I don't care what Canons own advertising campaign does as a market scheme . I live in a town where I see about 100 to 150 photographers a day , on the street taking photos . Men have dslrs' and woman have p&s' , period . About 10% of women taking photos have dslrs' . Now maybe Canon would like to grab that female soccermom market but my experience of seeing thousands of photographers a year taking photos , is that soccermoms buy p&s' and their husbands buy rebels , or d40s' or a300s' etc. Of course I'm making a generalization . I also see alot of women photographers who have real cameras and take real photos , but on the average that's the way I see it , on the street , in a tourist town. I also know alot of mexican photographers making a living shooting and on the most part they use rebels or d40/60s . Remember the world is a big place , and not everyone in every country can afford a 5dmkll .
And as an addition , cruising the video forums , it seems everyone , i.e. everyone is unhappy with this rebel upgrade .

Chris Hurd · March 25th, 2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurth Bousman

cruising the video forums , it seems everyone , i.e. everyone is unhappy with this rebel upgrade .

And yet, Canon will sell every last one it makes. The profuse outpouring of unbridled rage from the filmmaker crowd on the video forums isn't going to put the slightest dent in their camera sales. It hasn't affected the 5D Mk. II and it's not about to hamper the Rebel T1i. Apparently I'm not alone in this prediction, either. Check out Ron Risman's assessment of the T1i, I think he nails it perfectly:

http://www.cameratown.com/news/news.cfm?id=7406

Nathan Troutman · March 25th, 2009, 01:09 PM

No offense to GH1 fans but I'm not sure that the GH1 is the clear guaranteed winner here with the micro 4/3rds format and the $2000 price tag. It's got 24P and it's using a codec familiar to the video world but the 5DMII is also H.264 at a much higher bit-rate.

The Rebel T1 is competing with the D90 and is clearly for consumers who aren't going to care about auto exposure and lack of manual controls. Please also try to remember the $800 list price - pretty cheap for HD video and 15MP pictures. We'll have to see what kind of video mode goes into the more budget friendly professional photography line that is the 10-20-30-40-50D and more importantly what happens with the 5DMkII and the upcoming firmware update because the 5D has the FF sensor with amazing low-light ability and a great codec.

To me the sleeper pick is Nikon who has no video line to try and protect. It's probably why Nikon was so quick and happy to run out 24P at $1000 right out of the gate. They didn't realize what a marketing gimmick 24P has turned out to be.

In the end I'm just happy to get stunning 1080P footage with film-like DOF when I want it without dragging around a 12lb 4ft long film adapterred camcorder!

So Canon hear our complaints, but I for one will also remember to say thank you for what you've helped to start. And you can't forget to thank Red as well. The fanboys tried to tear Red apart but everything they create really shakes up the market and it's really good for everybody. Yeah for real innovation!

Robert Sanders · March 25th, 2009, 02:30 PM

One thing this announcement has done is humble the filmmaker community.

What I mean by that is we, the filmmaking and video production community, believe we are the measuring stick, the milestone by which all products are measured. And we've been beating up Canon pretty badly since September. We've been DEMANDING changes to firmware and DEMANDING that design changes in future products acquiesce to our needs.

So Canon had a chance to humbly drink from our trough and present us with the solution to our demands.

And what did they say as we stood there, arms crossed, playing coy?

They said **** YOU! You are not our core business! You are not the driver of our products! You are a small fraction of our customers and we will not kowtow to your forum rants and wishes! We will support and defend our video products until no one buys them anymore. And then... maybe... we'll give you what you want.

Pete Bauer · March 25th, 2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurth Bousman

Men have dslrs' and woman have p&s' , period . About 10% of women taking photos have dslrs'

I guess all the moms with both low- and high-end DSLRs scurrying around our daughter's dance place, youth symphony, and the kid's or beer league sporting events around here didn't get that memo. San Miguel Allende is just one place in this big world, but Canon goes everywhere and I believe it is fair to say based on their longstanding success in the SLR market that Canon is pretty good at producing products that people will buy.

Thomas Richter · March 25th, 2009, 02:53 PM

I just watched the sample videos. IF this is a fairly honest representation of what is coming out of the camera, I am amazed. I know of no consumer grade device that outputs such a lovely rendition of skin tones, and even prosumer camcorders frequently fail.

Robert, whereas I totally share your frustration, I am not certain we can blame Canon so strongly. The canibalizing power of these devices on their prosumer and low end pro-gear is immense for certain applications, as the 5d has shown. Cineform helps to overcome the codec issue, so after ingestion you are looking at pro-grade footage.

Canon decided to avoid canibalization. I can understand that. They have to earn for the millions of dollars spent on development over the years, both in video and photo departments.

In the SLR market it's pro features not only image quality that drives decisions, because the quality level is already so high. In filmic video it's a lot more complex. RED was used by pros even when it only had record start, stop, exposure and shutter control. People even film with the Canon 5D 2 and all it's limitations just to get DOF and stunning image-tonality.

Thomas

Dylan Couper · March 25th, 2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurth Bousman

And as an addition , cruising the video forums , it seems everyone , i.e. everyone is unhappy with this rebel upgrade .

I'm not unhappy with it... I think it's pretty amazing that consumers will be able to get HD video of this level of quality out of their cameras for a price this low.

Kurth Bousman · March 25th, 2009, 03:10 PM

oh Pete , everyone knows that nothing normal happens in Houston , or at least every Texan knows this ! But seriously SMA is a great judge for these types of phenomenon because people come from everywhere , even Houston . Have you visited ? Actually SMA is "fished out " in terms of photography . We still have the santa fe workshops but most people visiting don't even scratch the surface of Mexico .

And I'm sure the video from the 500d will be acceptable to most , but those who want to set their own f-stops will be turned off , and will continue to wait for "the camera" , whether it comes from canon , nikon or sony .

Michael Murie · March 25th, 2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurth Bousman

The point is why ? Why didn't they just make it 24p ? I don't buy a "horsepower" reason . The camera has digic4 .

Interestingly, Canon's press release says:

Quote:

Like the EOS 5D Mark II model, the EOS Rebel T1i camera will record video up to 4GB per clip equaling approximately 12 minutes of Full HD video

Which is odd, because that's almost exactly what they quote for the 5D Mark II (12 minutes for 4GB.) Assuming the numbers are correct, it suggests that the compression on the Rebel is at a higher bit rate than the 5D Mark II. Why do that? Why not use the same bit rate and let people record longer movies?

I have no idea...I'll leave that to the conspiracy theorists.

Kurth Bousman · March 25th, 2009, 03:21 PM

Well Dylan , visit prolost or dvx and see what they're saying . I'm sure the video will be nice but it will still be uncontrollable and that's what makes the difference . I'll wait for any dslr or evf camera that gives me the control I have on my camcorder regardless of the brand . We all know what the problem is . The technology is available and it's cheap . We see one piece of the technology on one camera , and we see another part of the puzzle on another , and so on . The problem is that the boys in their conference rooms plotting marketing strategies want to milk the buyers for as many generations as possible . Because the infinite advancement of the technology isn't going to continue advancing at the present rate , they strategically plot how many sales can they enhance with the slow trickle philosophy . We're all just hoping someone bucks the trend.

March 25th, 2009, 11:56 AM	#31
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	The decision making at Canon is odd. I can understand them making this a 720p camera. They consider 24p (like the D90), but they've already snubbed 24p on the 5D MkII, so they choose 30p. They realize that they've hosed the PAL market again, so they technically snub the NTSC market too by using 30.0 fps, rather than 29.97 fps. Finally, they realize that "1080p" can gain sales, but don't want to step on the 5D MkII, so they choose 20p. So again, they've dissed the PAL market, ignored the demand for 24p, and given their customers a reason to buy more Nikon lenses and adapters (due to auto mode). There's one thing they did get right though - the codec. It will beat the pants off of the codec in the D90 at 720p. It might just be editable, and if not, Cineform is likely to provide a solution before long. However, if the GH1 codec and processing are good, that camera threatens to be the budget HDSL(r) of choice. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 25th, 2009, 12:11 PM	#32
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Dylan's right, of course... the Rebel series has always been targeted at consumers, even back in the Rebel G and Rebel X days, long before it ever went digital. The "soccer mom" is exactly who they're reaching out to in their marketing, see attached pic from the Winter 2007 EOS catalog... These are the folks who will see nothing at all wrong with the T1i video clips on Rob Galbraith's site, linked above. Attached Thumbnails __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 25th, 2009, 12:40 PM	#35
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	"Coarse words" would never fly on DV Info Net, and Jon knows that. The typical internet experience is all about being personally insulted and flaunting your righteous indignation over perceived injustices such as this consumer D-SLR. However, this site is definitely not the typical internet experience. Hopefully that's why Jon and so many others choose to post here. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 25th, 2009, 12:40 PM	#36
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	Well , Dylan but I beg to differ ! And I don't care what Canons own advertising campaign does as a market scheme . I live in a town where I see about 100 to 150 photographers a day , on the street taking photos . Men have dslrs' and woman have p&s' , period . About 10% of women taking photos have dslrs' . Now maybe Canon would like to grab that female soccermom market but my experience of seeing thousands of photographers a year taking photos , is that soccermoms buy p&s' and their husbands buy rebels , or d40s' or a300s' etc. Of course I'm making a generalization . I also see alot of women photographers who have real cameras and take real photos , but on the average that's the way I see it , on the street , in a tourist town. I also know alot of mexican photographers making a living shooting and on the most part they use rebels or d40/60s . Remember the world is a big place , and not everyone in every country can afford a 5dmkll . And as an addition , cruising the video forums , it seems everyone , i.e. everyone is unhappy with this rebel upgrade . Last edited by Kurth Bousman; March 25th, 2009 at 12:41 PM. Reason: spelling

March 25th, 2009, 02:30 PM	#39
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	One thing this announcement has done is humble the filmmaker community. What I mean by that is we, the filmmaking and video production community, believe we are the measuring stick, the milestone by which all products are measured. And we've been beating up Canon pretty badly since September. We've been DEMANDING changes to firmware and DEMANDING that design changes in future products acquiesce to our needs. So Canon had a chance to humbly drink from our trough and present us with the solution to our demands. And what did they say as we stood there, arms crossed, playing coy? They said **** YOU! You are not our core business! You are not the driver of our products! You are a small fraction of our customers and we will not kowtow to your forum rants and wishes! We will support and defend our video products until no one buys them anymore. And then... maybe... we'll give you what you want. __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

March 25th, 2009, 01:09 PM	#38
Nathan Troutman Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hoboken, NJ (New York metro area) Posts: 105	No offense to GH1 fans but I'm not sure that the GH1 is the clear guaranteed winner here with the micro 4/3rds format and the $2000 price tag. It's got 24P and it's using a codec familiar to the video world but the 5DMII is also H.264 at a much higher bit-rate. The Rebel T1 is competing with the D90 and is clearly for consumers who aren't going to care about auto exposure and lack of manual controls. Please also try to remember the $800 list price - pretty cheap for HD video and 15MP pictures. We'll have to see what kind of video mode goes into the more budget friendly professional photography line that is the 10-20-30-40-50D and more importantly what happens with the 5DMkII and the upcoming firmware update because the 5D has the FF sensor with amazing low-light ability and a great codec. To me the sleeper pick is Nikon who has no video line to try and protect. It's probably why Nikon was so quick and happy to run out 24P at $1000 right out of the gate. They didn't realize what a marketing gimmick 24P has turned out to be. In the end I'm just happy to get stunning 1080P footage with film-like DOF when I want it without dragging around a 12lb 4ft long film adapterred camcorder! So Canon hear our complaints, but I for one will also remember to say thank you for what you've helped to start. And you can't forget to thank Red as well. The fanboys tried to tear Red apart but everything they create really shakes up the market and it's really good for everybody. Yeah for real innovation!

March 25th, 2009, 02:53 PM	#41
Thomas Richter Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 181	I just watched the sample videos. IF this is a fairly honest representation of what is coming out of the camera, I am amazed. I know of no consumer grade device that outputs such a lovely rendition of skin tones, and even prosumer camcorders frequently fail. Robert, whereas I totally share your frustration, I am not certain we can blame Canon so strongly. The canibalizing power of these devices on their prosumer and low end pro-gear is immense for certain applications, as the 5d has shown. Cineform helps to overcome the codec issue, so after ingestion you are looking at pro-grade footage. Canon decided to avoid canibalization. I can understand that. They have to earn for the millions of dollars spent on development over the years, both in video and photo departments. In the SLR market it's pro features not only image quality that drives decisions, because the quality level is already so high. In filmic video it's a lot more complex. RED was used by pros even when it only had record start, stop, exposure and shutter control. People even film with the Canon 5D 2 and all it's limitations just to get DOF and stunning image-tonality. Thomas

March 25th, 2009, 03:10 PM	#43
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	oh Pete , everyone knows that nothing normal happens in Houston , or at least every Texan knows this ! But seriously SMA is a great judge for these types of phenomenon because people come from everywhere , even Houston . Have you visited ? Actually SMA is "fished out " in terms of photography . We still have the santa fe workshops but most people visiting don't even scratch the surface of Mexico . And I'm sure the video from the 500d will be acceptable to most , but those who want to set their own f-stops will be turned off , and will continue to wait for "the camera" , whether it comes from canon , nikon or sony .

March 25th, 2009, 03:21 PM	#45
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	Well Dylan , visit prolost or dvx and see what they're saying . I'm sure the video will be nice but it will still be uncontrollable and that's what makes the difference . I'll wait for any dslr or evf camera that gives me the control I have on my camcorder regardless of the brand . We all know what the problem is . The technology is available and it's cheap . We see one piece of the technology on one camera , and we see another part of the puzzle on another , and so on . The problem is that the boys in their conference rooms plotting marketing strategies want to milk the buyers for as many generations as possible . Because the infinite advancement of the technology isn't going to continue advancing at the present rate , they strategically plot how many sales can they enhance with the slow trickle philosophy . We're all just hoping someone bucks the trend.