DVCProHD or DVCPro50 for SD? at DVinfo.net

Brian Ladue · April 26th, 2007, 03:35 PM

Question: what will give better results? shooting in DVCProHD then downconverting to SD for SD DVD Delivery or Shooting in DVCPro50 and staying in SD?

Shane Ross · April 26th, 2007, 04:39 PM

Shoot DVCPRO 50...stay SD all the way. Save yourself from the need to downconvert.

Paulo Teixeira · April 26th, 2007, 05:15 PM

If you plan on making HD DVD/ Blu-Ray discs in the future than you may want to stick with DVCPRO-HD but as far as picture quality is concerned for SD DVDs, your best bet is DVCPRO-50.

Jon Fairhurst · April 26th, 2007, 06:21 PM

But isn't the SD version limited to interlace? (I'm not sure.) If you're doing effects or processing, progressive is often desirable.

Benjamin Hill · April 26th, 2007, 08:42 PM

Brian, neither one is "better" so much as "better for your purpose"...I myself shoot DVCPro50 as much as possible because most of my clients can't tell the difference from HD...and between the milder compression when compared to HD and the noticeable jump in color resolution from DV, it really is bang for the buck.

SD is always interlaced but you can still shoot true progressive 24fps with the advanced pulldown. If you shot 1080i you'd be dealing with that as well...

One thing to note is that if you shoot DVCProHD, down-res in camera to DV tape, you'll have lower color resolution to work with in post (though you will ostensibly be starting out with a "bigger" picture). IF that's important to you personally...

Ali Husain · April 26th, 2007, 08:57 PM

barry green did an extensive test of this a year or two ago which i think is over on the dvxuser site. dvcpro50 looked best out of all the options when the end product is sd.

Gene Crucean · April 27th, 2007, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Hill

If you shot 1080i you'd be dealing with that as well...

Not entirely true. If you shoot at 24 or 30 you can do progressive but can't do 60p in 1080.

Robert Lane · April 27th, 2007, 08:13 AM

Brian,

This has always been a hotly debated topic however, I can tell you from months of testing this very scenario that based on our test results we decided to always shoot HD 720p24P or 30p , edit in HD then down to SD-widescreen for DVD output. We always retain the original HD projects so that we have the option for HD-DVD, Blu-Ray or HD broadcast in the future.

The only major benefit to shooting in DV50 (DVCPRO-50) and is specific to the HVX; there is less visible noise since the chips are not using spatial-offset to get to HD resolution, so the image will appear cleaner, but at lower res which means more edge artifacts typical to SD.

The other implication of DV50 is that the data rate is actually higher than DV100 (strange, but true) so you'll end up with less time on the cards and, rendering in any NLE will take more horsepower. DV50 is 50Mb/s in the timeline; DV100 (DVCPRO-HD) is 15Mb/s on the timeline requiring less work from the CPU in edits.

So which way to go will ultimately depend on both what you prefer for look and feel in your productions, whether or not you ever plan to use true HD output in the future and, whether or not the extra horsepower for DV50 would ever become an issue in editing.

DV50: Lower-res, cleaner image, no downconvert for SD output, higher data rate for editing.

DV100: HD-res, more visible noise from HVX, downconvert for DVD, lower data rate than DV50 in timeline, retain original HD content for the future.

It's all about which compromise works best for you.

Benjamin Hill · April 27th, 2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gene Crucean

Not entirely true. If you shoot at 24 or 30 you can do progressive but can't do 60p in 1080.

I didn't say you can do 60P in 1080. I said if you wanted true progressive 24fps in 1080i, you could get that the same way you would from SD video, using advanced pulldown.

David Saraceno · April 27th, 2007, 09:33 AM

Always shoot DVCProHD 720/24pn and use Compressor or BitVice to convert for SD DVDs.

Looks fabulous

I don't see much if any difference from DVCPro50.

Also, you future proof footage.

Brian Ladue · April 27th, 2007, 10:28 AM

Hey Guys thanks so much for the info, I don't have an HVX....but in late May i will be getting an HPX500, it is basically the same camera with some really nice improvements. As for future proofing, i think that it would be a good idea to shoot in 720pN. My NLE is Premiere Pro, and i will be getting Raylight, and i think i will also get the matrox rt.x2 w/ the upgrade option to the latest Adobe Production Suite (for cheap monitoring options) ...what is a good compressor for PC? I heard good things about Vegas, but thats another $700. anyaways, I was thinking since my Documentaries were basically destined to be SD DVDs... I figured I'd ask to find out what the best options were.

Ash Greyson · April 28th, 2007, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Saraceno

Always shoot DVCProHD 720/24pn and use Compressor or BitVice to convert for SD DVDs.

Looks fabulous

I don't see much if any difference from DVCPro50.

Also, you future proof footage.

I dont agree at all. Future proofing is a marketing term, not a practical reality. You can uprezz progressive DV50 and it looks terrific. If you are delivering on SD and dont need the extra frame rates, DV50 will look much cleaner and let you push it more in post. DVCproHD is a decent codec but it can fall apart much faster than DV50 with serious color correction or tweaking.

ash =o)

John Miller · April 28th, 2007, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

The other implication of DV50 is that the data rate is actually higher than DV100 (strange, but true) so you'll end up with less time on the cards and, rendering in any NLE will take more horsepower. DV50 is 50Mb/s in the timeline; DV100 (DVCPRO-HD) is 15Mb/s on the timeline requiring less work from the CPU in edits.

I don't understand how DVCPro HD is 15Mbps on the timeline. DVCPro HD is 100Mbps. If what you are ending up with is 15Mbps, then it must be an MPEG2 variant (e.g., HDV).

DVCPro HD is just like its 50Mbps and 25Mbps - no interframe compression.

Robert Lane · April 29th, 2007, 08:25 PM

John,

DVCPRO-HD is 100Mbps in-camera; when it gets to the timeline it's 15Mbs. If you want all 100Mps straight out of the camera you'd have to use the modification now available for the HVX or, choose the HPX500 and come out HD-SDI to get the full bandwidth.

If you're using FCP, read the supplied manuals about data rates for every codec FCP supports or, goto http://www.adamwilt.com and read up on codec data rates.

Barry Green · April 30th, 2007, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

DVCPRO-HD is 100Mbps in-camera; when it gets to the timeline it's 15Mbs.

Not sure what you're saying here; DVCPRO-HD is always 100 megabits. It's about 14 megaBytes, which is about the same as 100 megaBits.

If you shoot 1080 or 720 "over 60" the files are 100 megabits on the card and on the hard disk and on the timeline.

I'm guessing there's just a confusion between megabits and megabytes here?

April 26th, 2007, 03:35 PM	#1
Brian Ladue Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 149	DVCProHD or DVCPro50 for SD? Question: what will give better results? shooting in DVCProHD then downconverting to SD for SD DVD Delivery or Shooting in DVCPro50 and staying in SD?

April 26th, 2007, 05:15 PM	#3
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	If you plan on making HD DVD/ Blu-Ray discs in the future than you may want to stick with DVCPRO-HD but as far as picture quality is concerned for SD DVDs, your best bet is DVCPRO-50. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

April 26th, 2007, 06:21 PM	#4
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	But isn't the SD version limited to interlace? (I'm not sure.) If you're doing effects or processing, progressive is often desirable. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

April 26th, 2007, 08:42 PM	#5
Benjamin Hill Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Iowa City, Iowa Posts: 670	Brian, neither one is "better" so much as "better for your purpose"...I myself shoot DVCPro50 as much as possible because most of my clients can't tell the difference from HD...and between the milder compression when compared to HD and the noticeable jump in color resolution from DV, it really is bang for the buck. SD is always interlaced but you can still shoot true progressive 24fps with the advanced pulldown. If you shot 1080i you'd be dealing with that as well... One thing to note is that if you shoot DVCProHD, down-res in camera to DV tape, you'll have lower color resolution to work with in post (though you will ostensibly be starting out with a "bigger" picture). IF that's important to you personally... __________________ youtube.com/benhillmedia linkedin.com/in/benhillmedia

April 26th, 2007, 04:39 PM	#2
Shane Ross Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Los Angeles, USA Posts: 539	Shoot DVCPRO 50...stay SD all the way. Save yourself from the need to downconvert.

April 26th, 2007, 08:57 PM	#6
Ali Husain Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 141	barry green did an extensive test of this a year or two ago which i think is over on the dvxuser site. dvcpro50 looked best out of all the options when the end product is sd.

April 27th, 2007, 08:13 AM	#8
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	Brian, This has always been a hotly debated topic however, I can tell you from months of testing this very scenario that based on our test results we decided to always shoot HD 720p24P or 30p , edit in HD then down to SD-widescreen for DVD output. We always retain the original HD projects so that we have the option for HD-DVD, Blu-Ray or HD broadcast in the future. The only major benefit to shooting in DV50 (DVCPRO-50) and is specific to the HVX; there is less visible noise since the chips are not using spatial-offset to get to HD resolution, so the image will appear cleaner, but at lower res which means more edge artifacts typical to SD. The other implication of DV50 is that the data rate is actually higher than DV100 (strange, but true) so you'll end up with less time on the cards and, rendering in any NLE will take more horsepower. DV50 is 50Mb/s in the timeline; DV100 (DVCPRO-HD) is 15Mb/s on the timeline requiring less work from the CPU in edits. So which way to go will ultimately depend on both what you prefer for look and feel in your productions, whether or not you ever plan to use true HD output in the future and, whether or not the extra horsepower for DV50 would ever become an issue in editing. DV50: Lower-res, cleaner image, no downconvert for SD output, higher data rate for editing. DV100: HD-res, more visible noise from HVX, downconvert for DVD, lower data rate than DV50 in timeline, retain original HD content for the future. It's all about which compromise works best for you.

April 27th, 2007, 09:33 AM	#10
David Saraceno Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inland Northwest Posts: 490	Always shoot DVCProHD 720/24pn and use Compressor or BitVice to convert for SD DVDs. Looks fabulous I don't see much if any difference from DVCPro50. Also, you future proof footage.

April 27th, 2007, 10:28 AM	#11
Brian Ladue Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 149	Hey Guys thanks so much for the info, I don't have an HVX....but in late May i will be getting an HPX500, it is basically the same camera with some really nice improvements. As for future proofing, i think that it would be a good idea to shoot in 720pN. My NLE is Premiere Pro, and i will be getting Raylight, and i think i will also get the matrox rt.x2 w/ the upgrade option to the latest Adobe Production Suite (for cheap monitoring options) ...what is a good compressor for PC? I heard good things about Vegas, but thats another $700. anyaways, I was thinking since my Documentaries were basically destined to be SD DVDs... I figured I'd ask to find out what the best options were.

April 29th, 2007, 08:25 PM	#14
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	John, DVCPRO-HD is 100Mbps in-camera; when it gets to the timeline it's 15Mbs. If you want all 100Mps straight out of the camera you'd have to use the modification now available for the HVX or, choose the HPX500 and come out HD-SDI to get the full bandwidth. If you're using FCP, read the supplied manuals about data rates for every codec FCP supports or, goto http://www.adamwilt.com and read up on codec data rates.