Hoodman P2 card coming up?

TingSern Wong · November 8th, 2007, 10:37 PM

Hi David,

My Apologies ... I misread some of the forum's mails. Hoodman's P2 should be out by end of summer 07 - which is basically now. If we haven't heard from Hoodman, we can assume they must have ran into some technical problems then.

With Pany lowering their prices of P2 cards - I think (I think only) Hoodman might have a hard time trying to catch up on pricing in this aspect. Pany already announced (and maybe released) their 32GB P2 cards - though the prices are pretty steep at this moment. 2X the price of the existing 16GB cards - hence, it would make little sense to get their 32GB P2 cards right now.

Dean Sensui · November 8th, 2007, 11:07 PM

What's interesting is that the CF cards for the Red One is about $200 for an 8-gigabyte card.

I know the underlying technology is different.

Still, seeing how a 4k camera can store similar amounts of data at a fraction of the cost makes one stop and think that there must be a better way for Panasonic to do the same thing.

TingSern Wong · November 8th, 2007, 11:39 PM

When Panasonic created the P2 concept, I don't think this ever comes into the picture at that time. I think it is now too late for Panasonic to go back and redesign the concept.

Jan has stated that the price of the P2 cards is more than just the 4 SD cards + the RAID controller. There are functionalities in that card that folks don't think about ... such as - the overflow manager .. When I plug in two cards and one card is full, how does the data gets carried forward from the full card to the next card?

Tim Polster · November 9th, 2007, 08:21 AM

I would have to say that with the RED use of CF cards and the Covergent Designs use of CF cards, the P2 cost & design look like yesterday's expensive technology.

If the Covergent Designs box can record the SDI signal up to 160mb/s, then why does P2 need a raid to record a more compressed stream?

TingSern Wong · November 9th, 2007, 10:03 AM

Hi,

May I refer you folks to another thread in this forum titled ... " Will Panasonic stick with P2?". You can read all the pros and cons that have been discussed about the P2 concept.

One must realise that product cycles are long. Once you have designed and manufactured a product - especially for professional use - such as P2 - you can't change it on the fly just because a superior technology now appear.

P2 concept was conceived at the time when no high speed CF / SxS / ExpressCard was in sight. And I doubt anybody could predict what next year's improvements will be like.

If I understand what P2 can do - the present DVCProHD data stream hardly approaches the limit of P2 recording - which is about 600Mbits/sec write.

Hence Panasonic can introduce - say DVCProHD 200 (as opposed to current 100) - and the P2 card will still be able to cope without breaking into sweat.

Robert Lane · November 9th, 2007, 10:58 AM

I've spoken with Hoodman a few times about thier "H2" P2 card project; initially they had planned on an early summer release however when Panny introduced new firmware for many P2 devices this setback their engineering and they had to re-tool.

Also at issue is that their original design concept was to use a single flash-RAM module in the PCMCIA housing; they realized (as we had suspected) that this doesn't communicate properly, so they too are now also using a 4-module RAID design configuration.

Currently they are planning a Q1 '08 release of the H2-P2 cards; no word on pricing or what sizes will be available.

I'll be one of the beta-testers for the cards so I'll keep the forum updated on progress.

Robert Lane · February 5th, 2008, 01:43 PM

I just received an email today from Hoodman stating they have officially dropped their Hoodman P2 card project. That leaves Fuji as the sole third-party provider of P2 media - assuming that comes to fruition as planned this year.

Ethan Cooper · February 5th, 2008, 07:00 PM

P2 has a huge disadvantage now and that's being saddled with the moniker of "proprietary". These days manufactures are finally seeing that ubiquity trumps proprietary and consumers are rewarding them for that. I honestly think that part of the success of HDV was the fact that you could use a proven, cheap, buy it anywhere medium of DV tapes to record to. I hope the manufactures don't miss this fact.
The only reason Panny's P2 technology didn't wither on the vine was that the HVX was a superb camera and people were more than willing to travel down the P2 road to have a wonderful tool in their arsenal.
That's my take on the situation.

Robert Lane · February 5th, 2008, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

P2 has a huge disadvantage now and that's being saddled with the moniker of "proprietary". These days manufactures are finally seeing that ubiquity trumps proprietary and consumers are rewarding them for that...

While opinions abound, the above is short-sighted.

If P2 were a proprietary tape-based format then yes, it would be a distinct disadvantage. However, comparing HDV which is a solely tape-based format to P2 which is tapeless is moot.

In point of fact, Sony has released it's own version of P2, the SxS cards for the EX1; they share the same workflow and cost (almost to the dollar) as Panny's P2. This "huge disadvantage" may apply to those who simply don't want a tapeless workflow - because it is drastically different than tape - but clearly the hundreds of millions invested by both commercial production companies, post houses and major broadcasters such as FOX in P2 shows that not only is tapeless valid but it is wave of the future.

It's important to point out, that P2 cut it's teeth on broadcast SD and very high-end military-grade security cameras *first* far ahead of the release of the HVX200 which brought P2 to the masses.

It's a short time before we'll have a tapeless Varicam and HDCAM body, so if you're in love with tape and ever plan on moving up to the major broadcast formats then you'll eventually be forced into that workflow.

Dean Sensui · February 5th, 2008, 07:22 PM

I hope Panasonic is working to develop a more efficient codec. It would go a long way toward improving recording times and storage concerns.

From what Red has come up with, it's evident that it's possible to encode just as much or more information into a given data stream than with the P2 codec.

While Red's codec uses twice as much data than the P2 system, the image has almost six times more pixels and much greater depth. It's also visually lossless and was proven to be as effective as RED's uncompressed codec. As a result of testing with some of the best industry experts, RED decided to abandon the uncompressed format as being superfluous.

It's a good example of more not always being better.

Sony's EX1 codec uses three times less data than P2. Although it's a long-GOP codec, it's image quality is proving to be very appealing to many DP's and producers.

Ethan Cooper · February 5th, 2008, 07:43 PM

Robert,
To re-state my opinion, it was the familiar and low cost medium (just so happened to be tape) that helped HDV do so well. It definitely wasn't due to higher picture quality, better color space or easier workflow... so it had to be something and I'm saying it was the recording medium being cheap and effective.. and established.

I'm not making this a P2 vs tape argument, I completely understand that tape is a dying format. I'm just saying that if the major camera companies could just standardize on one or two cards (CF or SD) that it would drive media prices down leaving us with a lot more cash to toss around on more of their products.
I get way more excited about buying $1600 worth of accessories or another whole camera than buying $1600 worth of media. If I can get away with not buying the extra media by cutting a few corners then I will, but if I can take the same amount of $$ and buy something to make my audio better, or image wider, or shot more stable then I'm much more likely to spend that money.
See where I'm going here? I'm not a great persuasive speaker, and never will win a debate, but hopefully I'm making some sense here.

TingSern Wong · February 5th, 2008, 08:15 PM

Let's hope we have another manufacturer for P2 - not for the price ... but to prove to the naysayers that P2 media is here to stay ... otherwise, having only one source (Panasonic) is not that good for publicity.

Ethan,

CF - is fine. I won't go for SD or SDHC ... the media is just too thin - not rugged enough for field use. And too small. Ever tried to insert a SD card wearing gloves? CF media is bigger, and is more rugged. Get it?

Robert Lane · February 5th, 2008, 08:53 PM

Ethan, you've completely missed one of the major benefits of a tapeless system: You eliminate recurring media costs.

What I would suggest is running some numbers on your own production costs; figure out how much you spend a year on buying HDV tape, then how much time it takes for you to capture all that footage (1 hour of footage = 1 hour of capture). When you look at both the lack of recurring media costs and the time saved in not having to capture, a tapeless format ends up paying for itself in usually 1 or 2 jobs - depending on your work.

TingSern Wong · February 5th, 2008, 09:39 PM

100% agree with that, Robert. A lot of folks mused about the high costs of P2 cards (and SxS for that matter) - but, they don't realised that you only need to pay Once ... and no more after that.

Ethan Cooper · February 6th, 2008, 01:52 AM

Robert,
Once again, maybe I didn't make myself clear here.
I'm NOT saying tape media is better than tapeless. Anyone else get that from my post? If so, then I'm just horrible at making a point.
I'm saying the cost of P2 (or SxS) is too high considering there are cheaper alternatives out there such as CF cards and we as consumers would be much better off if the major camera companies could just agree to use these off the shelf media in their tapeless cameras. THAT is the cost savings I was talking about not the cost of tape over P2 but the cost of other available flash media over P2. Would there not be a benefit to us as consumers if this would happen? Could we not then spend less money on media and more money on additional tools that can actually have an impact on the quality of our work?

Can a fast CF card handle DVCProHD data rates? If not, then I have no point, but if so, why not just use them?

My whole point in this is that proprietary technology is bad for the consumer and I'd love to see the industry move away from that mindset of proprietary.

November 8th, 2007, 11:07 PM	#62
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	What's interesting is that the CF cards for the Red One is about $200 for an 8-gigabyte card. I know the underlying technology is different. Still, seeing how a 4k camera can store similar amounts of data at a fraction of the cost makes one stop and think that there must be a better way for Panasonic to do the same thing. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

February 5th, 2008, 01:43 PM	#67
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	Hoodman P2 Cancelled I just received an email today from Hoodman stating they have officially dropped their Hoodman P2 card project. That leaves Fuji as the sole third-party provider of P2 media - assuming that comes to fruition as planned this year.

February 5th, 2008, 07:00 PM	#68
Ethan Cooper Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 1,400 Images: 5	P2 has a huge disadvantage now and that's being saddled with the moniker of "proprietary". These days manufactures are finally seeing that ubiquity trumps proprietary and consumers are rewarding them for that. I honestly think that part of the success of HDV was the fact that you could use a proven, cheap, buy it anywhere medium of DV tapes to record to. I hope the manufactures don't miss this fact. The only reason Panny's P2 technology didn't wither on the vine was that the HVX was a superb camera and people were more than willing to travel down the P2 road to have a wonderful tool in their arsenal. That's my take on the situation. __________________ ∅ -Ethan Cooper

February 5th, 2008, 07:22 PM	#70
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	I hope Panasonic is working to develop a more efficient codec. It would go a long way toward improving recording times and storage concerns. From what Red has come up with, it's evident that it's possible to encode just as much or more information into a given data stream than with the P2 codec. While Red's codec uses twice as much data than the P2 system, the image has almost six times more pixels and much greater depth. It's also visually lossless and was proven to be as effective as RED's uncompressed codec. As a result of testing with some of the best industry experts, RED decided to abandon the uncompressed format as being superfluous. It's a good example of more not always being better. Sony's EX1 codec uses three times less data than P2. Although it's a long-GOP codec, it's image quality is proving to be very appealing to many DP's and producers. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

February 5th, 2008, 07:43 PM	#71
Ethan Cooper Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 1,400 Images: 5	Robert, To re-state my opinion, it was the familiar and low cost medium (just so happened to be tape) that helped HDV do so well. It definitely wasn't due to higher picture quality, better color space or easier workflow... so it had to be something and I'm saying it was the recording medium being cheap and effective.. and established. I'm not making this a P2 vs tape argument, I completely understand that tape is a dying format. I'm just saying that if the major camera companies could just standardize on one or two cards (CF or SD) that it would drive media prices down leaving us with a lot more cash to toss around on more of their products. I get way more excited about buying $1600 worth of accessories or another whole camera than buying $1600 worth of media. If I can get away with not buying the extra media by cutting a few corners then I will, but if I can take the same amount of $$ and buy something to make my audio better, or image wider, or shot more stable then I'm much more likely to spend that money. See where I'm going here? I'm not a great persuasive speaker, and never will win a debate, but hopefully I'm making some sense here. __________________ ∅ -Ethan Cooper

November 8th, 2007, 10:37 PM	#61
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Hi David, My Apologies ... I misread some of the forum's mails. Hoodman's P2 should be out by end of summer 07 - which is basically now. If we haven't heard from Hoodman, we can assume they must have ran into some technical problems then. With Pany lowering their prices of P2 cards - I think (I think only) Hoodman might have a hard time trying to catch up on pricing in this aspect. Pany already announced (and maybe released) their 32GB P2 cards - though the prices are pretty steep at this moment. 2X the price of the existing 16GB cards - hence, it would make little sense to get their 32GB P2 cards right now.

November 8th, 2007, 11:39 PM	#63
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	When Panasonic created the P2 concept, I don't think this ever comes into the picture at that time. I think it is now too late for Panasonic to go back and redesign the concept. Jan has stated that the price of the P2 cards is more than just the 4 SD cards + the RAID controller. There are functionalities in that card that folks don't think about ... such as - the overflow manager .. When I plug in two cards and one card is full, how does the data gets carried forward from the full card to the next card?

November 9th, 2007, 08:21 AM	#64
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	I would have to say that with the RED use of CF cards and the Covergent Designs use of CF cards, the P2 cost & design look like yesterday's expensive technology. If the Covergent Designs box can record the SDI signal up to 160mb/s, then why does P2 need a raid to record a more compressed stream?

November 9th, 2007, 10:03 AM	#65
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Hi, May I refer you folks to another thread in this forum titled ... " Will Panasonic stick with P2?". You can read all the pros and cons that have been discussed about the P2 concept. One must realise that product cycles are long. Once you have designed and manufactured a product - especially for professional use - such as P2 - you can't change it on the fly just because a superior technology now appear. P2 concept was conceived at the time when no high speed CF / SxS / ExpressCard was in sight. And I doubt anybody could predict what next year's improvements will be like. If I understand what P2 can do - the present DVCProHD data stream hardly approaches the limit of P2 recording - which is about 600Mbits/sec write. Hence Panasonic can introduce - say DVCProHD 200 (as opposed to current 100) - and the P2 card will still be able to cope without breaking into sweat.

November 9th, 2007, 10:58 AM	#66
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	I've spoken with Hoodman a few times about thier "H2" P2 card project; initially they had planned on an early summer release however when Panny introduced new firmware for many P2 devices this setback their engineering and they had to re-tool. Also at issue is that their original design concept was to use a single flash-RAM module in the PCMCIA housing; they realized (as we had suspected) that this doesn't communicate properly, so they too are now also using a 4-module RAID design configuration. Currently they are planning a Q1 '08 release of the H2-P2 cards; no word on pricing or what sizes will be available. I'll be one of the beta-testers for the cards so I'll keep the forum updated on progress.

February 5th, 2008, 08:15 PM	#72
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Let's hope we have another manufacturer for P2 - not for the price ... but to prove to the naysayers that P2 media is here to stay ... otherwise, having only one source (Panasonic) is not that good for publicity. Ethan, CF - is fine. I won't go for SD or SDHC ... the media is just too thin - not rugged enough for field use. And too small. Ever tried to insert a SD card wearing gloves? CF media is bigger, and is more rugged. Get it?

February 5th, 2008, 08:53 PM	#73
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	Ethan, you've completely missed one of the major benefits of a tapeless system: You eliminate recurring media costs. What I would suggest is running some numbers on your own production costs; figure out how much you spend a year on buying HDV tape, then how much time it takes for you to capture all that footage (1 hour of footage = 1 hour of capture). When you look at both the lack of recurring media costs and the time saved in not having to capture, a tapeless format ends up paying for itself in usually 1 or 2 jobs - depending on your work.

February 5th, 2008, 09:39 PM	#74
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	100% agree with that, Robert. A lot of folks mused about the high costs of P2 cards (and SxS for that matter) - but, they don't realised that you only need to pay Once ... and no more after that.

February 6th, 2008, 01:52 AM	#75
Ethan Cooper Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 1,400 Images: 5	Robert, Once again, maybe I didn't make myself clear here. I'm NOT saying tape media is better than tapeless. Anyone else get that from my post? If so, then I'm just horrible at making a point. I'm saying the cost of P2 (or SxS) is too high considering there are cheaper alternatives out there such as CF cards and we as consumers would be much better off if the major camera companies could just agree to use these off the shelf media in their tapeless cameras. THAT is the cost savings I was talking about not the cost of tape over P2 but the cost of other available flash media over P2. Would there not be a benefit to us as consumers if this would happen? Could we not then spend less money on media and more money on additional tools that can actually have an impact on the quality of our work? Can a fast CF card handle DVCProHD data rates? If not, then I have no point, but if so, why not just use them? My whole point in this is that proprietary technology is bad for the consumer and I'd love to see the industry move away from that mindset of proprietary. __________________ ∅ -Ethan Cooper