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#16 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida
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So ABC Aus is in and FOX here in the US too! Great, they sure have the money for it. Now, please give me the price for a new 16 or 32gig card if I decide to switch cameras. I was surely not talking about networks and the like. I'm talking about the regular consumer/prosumer.
Solid state memory is indeed the way to go and is and will be the future, but will it be P2 cards? That is what I'm concerned with. Someone packages the memory in a different card style and introduces it in a different camera system, and then who decides what we will use, not Panasonic! Look at the recent history of memory cards and such. Sony memory sticks and Pro memory sticks, MMC/SD cards, Compact Flash cards, Smart Media, and on and on! Memory is memory and thank God it is getting cheaper to manufacture and buy. But, what if Sony or Canon or someone else jumps into the same market, and you know they will! What if one of the other manufacturers of memory decides to jump in on its own and has a great memory system to sell to camera manufacturers? They could dominate the market. A simple card, a universal socket, and straight forward marketing to camera manufacturers. A winner for a while, just like MiniDV was! MiniDV has lasted a good while now and will hang on a few more years, but it will go by the wayside before long. The difference that I see is that the MiniDV cassette tape and codec was adopted by a consortium of camera manufactures, thereby giving it some weight and a more solid future. Who, besides Panasonic, is building cameras using the P2 card system? There may be some I have not heard of, but none that I know of. Is it proprietary, are they licensing it to other camera makers? Someone will come along and market to the normal consummer/prosummer/professional and still be there for the network types. When I was at NAB last year, I saw dozens of cameras and systems that are never mentioned here on this forum. And, for good reason, as we will never use them or buy them. They are for the huge networks with seemingly unlimited supplies of money. I just think that for us, on this forum, the simple truth is that if the cards don’t get real big real soon and cost a lot less, that the P2 system will not be the one we on this forum are using to shoot our independent films, weddings and commercial presentations on a year or two from now. Solid state memory based systems will be the future, just maybe not P2 at the cost it is now. A quick check finds the price of an 8gig P2 card at B&H at $1,129.95 each. I don’t know what Panasonic’s profit margin is on these cards, Jan?, but if I were Panasonic I would be selling them at cost or below. Otherwise I think that they will be replaced by another. I have seen a few things come and go in my days. This is just the humble opinion of a seasoned idiot, stirring up a little controversy. :) Mike
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#17 |
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1,570
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I just love the spin put on P2 cards as "no moving parts". Well what happens everytime you take a P2 card out of the camera, you're moving the card. That mean a large number of electrical connections are being broken and then remade as the card is plugged into another device to dump the contents. Work out how many times this is done over an 8 hour shoot and the "no moving parts" concept flies out the window.
From my decades of experience no connection system will survive this for very long, a very large part of all computer problems are connection related. Keeping the connectors on the P2 card as clean as possible is going to help, any abrasive grit or corrosive gases will accelerate contact failure. The design of any connection system that's going to be cycled regularly requires very strict control of the hardness of the contact plating. Get either mating contact different and very quickly the plating is worn off exposing the base metal and that's when oxidisation starts, leading to high contact resistance. Panny might be able to control the contacts in the P2 cards and the cameras but users are plugging the cards into all manner of PCMCIA slots. Pelican make a range of small cases that house PCMCIA cards very nicely, I'd suggest anyone that's using P2 cards invest in those cases to keep their cards in. Do not put the card into pockets without a cover over the connector, getting any grit or lint inside the socket is not doing the contacts any favours. |
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#18 |
Go Go Godzilla
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Bob,
As Panasonics' white-papers show, the P2 connector, which is a redesigned PCMCIA Type II, has been failure-mode tested to over 30,000 insertion cycles. That comes out to approximately 10 cycles a day for more than 8 years. So it's safe to say that you'll be upgrading the card way before it physically wears out. This connector has already proven itself in the rugged ENG environment with the first shoulder-mount P2 cam, it's even been in ultra harsh scenarios such as Antarctica, the Mohave Desert and the deep tropics. Granted, no connector could well survive having dirt or liquid heaped on it, but Panny addressed the issue of connection robustness quite well. I can attest to that myself from my in-field, dirty environment usage. And with respect to the "no moving parts" argument, you can't compare any solid-state device to something with a spinning disk that requires heads, either electromagnetic or optical, to stay in alignment and even to a lesser degree, tape. And taken to it's logical end, your perspective of "movement" would apply to the entire camera itself, not just it's media being physically moved around. Lets not forget that DSLR's and other digi-still cameras have been using solid state media - SD/CF/XD - for many years well before the inception of P2. I've had the first pro Canon DSLR, the 1D since it's release and I can guarantee it's had more than 10,000 insertion cycles using the same CF cards with nary an issue. In fact I've had the shutter mechanism replaced twice because I wore it out, but the CF receiver and the cards have held up. Last edited by Robert Lane; February 5th, 2007 at 02:09 PM. |
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#19 | ||||
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#20 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 2,488
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P2 pointed the way to a tapeless future but has been surpassed (for general purposes) by more affordable and more widely available stock memory cards. Standardization and low cost will easily win out over any technological advantages of P2. |
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#21 |
Major Player
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NYC Metro area
Posts: 579
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Frankly, I'm getting tired of waiting.
IMO, no one has lived up to the promise of either the HVX or P2 technology. The camera's been on the market for more than a year, and the only viable alternative for long-form recording, (short of taking out a second mortgage for a bunch of 8GB cards - and then learning how to juggle), is the FireStore, which was still generating complaints from some buyers up to the latest firmware release. I'm tired of being so restricted.
I find projects are falling behind because no one has filled the void with anything large and reliable- not Panasonic, not Focus Enhancements, and certainly not Shining. SpecComm seems to be the best shot at getting something large and reliable any time soon. I admit I'm only a tiny, one-man show, and my budget is limited. That's what forces me to wait until something has proven widely reliable. But why is it taking so long? I bought my HVX nearly a year ago. At that time, the web sites involved read like it was already available, even though I couldn't find anyone who had it. Then, when it was, there were stories of problems. Based on posts around forums like this one, even today it seems like there's a 50/50 chance someone would have problems with it. The idea of upgrading any kind of electronic device through firmware is nice, even clever; but the practice seems to require improvement. What is this "Group Buy List" I've seen mentioned for the Cineporter? And, how does one get on it? Right now, it's got to be that, or wait for the latest FS-100 firmware release to be proven through comments in the forums. This wasn't meant to be a rant, but my patience is wearing thin after nearly a year for me, and somewhat longer than that for Panasonic to get these things right. I feel like I'm driving an SUV that's limited to a gas tank no larger than the one on my lawn mower: lots of promise for freedom, but almost uselessly-short on utility until the manufacturer perfects a larger tank and I can afford to pay the dealer to obtain - and install - one. I think it's arguable that some folks just aren't getting the message: it seems clear to me that HVX users want something that will reliably record for greater lengths of time...whether it "spins" or it's solid state. I think they'll live with the former while waiting for the latter, but please, somebody, get us one that is reliable and larger. I'd be happy even if it were only for DV thru DVCPRO50.
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#22 |
Go Go Godzilla
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Before I continue, let me just say I really, really love the debate. I have never been a part of any other forum that is so absolutely filled to the gills with so many technical and creatively knowledgeable people - ever. This forum rocks.
Now, to Jeff's points: - Nobody is saying P2 is impervious to damage of any kind, just that it is far more robust than anything else, save another solid-state media. I've had CF cards that were dropped or hit and went bad - nothing is indestructible. - PCMCIA is obsolete only in the laptop computing world, not the video realm, it's brand new. And as far as compatibility options, do you think XDCAM has more compatibility than P2? You have even less options with that. Will P2 last as long as tape has? Doubtful since the evolution of tech is much faster than 20 years ago, but who knows exactly what the future holds. I certainly don't think P2 is any less viable than Olympus' decision to create XD-type RAM. To a certain degree P2 can still be considered in it's infancy; it's a brand new media for video acquisition and as such is still finding it's "sea legs" if you will. Is it as widely accepted or as easily compatible as tape today? No, but as Jan has pointed out in short order you'll find the P2 footprint becoming much larger and with greater acceptance in all genres of production. As I mentioned earlier, I spent literally hundreds of hours researching the differing media types not only for today but for planned future expansion. P2 simply offers the most options - now and later - than any other system. For example: Can you put an HDV tape into an F900? Or put an XDCAM disk into a Z1? Or how about putting a Varicam tape into an HVX? No, none of that. But you can put the same P2 card in an HVX, shoot whatever codec/frame rate/format you want AND take that same P2 card and put it into any ENG P2 body you want and keep shooting. No other system offers that type of crossover usage or flexibility. Period. Is P2 perfect? Is it for everyone? Will it compete with RED? No. Not yet. (^_*) |
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#23 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida
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Are we really talking apples and oranges here? Be forwarned that I know far more about fruit than I do cameras. :)
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#24 | |||||
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 681
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I am planning to acquire RED, but that is still a moving target and even once it's here, I will still have need for a camera like the HVX200 or something more oriented to ENG purposes that can also fill a secondary role to the RED One. The HVX200 with a 35mm adapter and a nice set of Nikkor lenses is a powerful tool. I would prefer not parting with it just yet and some of the other offerings coming up like the HPX500 are more broadcast oriented and not quite what I'm looking for. I'd love an updated HVX200 with a higher-res sensor block, an interchangeable lens mount and AVCHD or IntraHD recording to P2. 2 P2 slots are still fine if they can get the capacities up. Quote:
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#25 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 681
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#26 | |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 2,488
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P.S. Can you put a P2 card in an HDV camera or a Varicam or an XDCAM HD or Grass Valley Infinity or "Red"? Hardly a crossover media type. |
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#27 | |
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#28 | |
Go Go Godzilla
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Mike - the F900 doesn't shoot HDV, it's shoots HDCAM, DVCAM or DV (?). The HVX shoots every codec/format it's bigger P2 brothers do, no other system can match that. The F330/350 shoots HDV, but at a different bitrate than the Z1/FX1 and it's a totally different media - discs, not tape. No crossover. |
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#29 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
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#30 | |
Go Go Godzilla
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