16GB cards?

[Peter Richardson]

Ever? This is ridiculous and I think it's starting to turn some Panasonic zealots (self-included) off on the company (it's like HP with the ink, or Gilette with the razor -- great revenue model, till it makes your consumers angry). I'm about to start a long-form project and keep waiting for the 16GB cards to be announced, to no avail. So instead I put a reservation down for a Red One. We'll see who gets here first :)

Peter

PS Jeff (Kilgroe) -- enjoyed reading your post on this very topic over at Reduser.net

[Kyle Prohaska]

Probably NAB but idk if they'll wait that long. They know their customers so odds are they will be out soon.

- Kyle

[Peter Richardson]

Yeah, I was thinking NAB as well. Now the question is whether to start on the project with what I have now, then switch mid-stream to the Red...decisions decisions.

Peter

[Robert Lane]

Peter,

As mentioned in another thread, the 16gb cards release will coincide with the HPX500. Originally planned for release with the HPX2000 there were some issues that caused Panny to hold back release until they were 100% sure they were ready.

Going forward I'd expect the larger cards may come more frequently and with fewer revisions in the pre-release design as this relatively new technology matures.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Peter Richardson

PS Jeff (Kilgroe) -- enjoyed reading your post on this very topic over at Reduser.net

:-) Thanks.

Yeah, the P2 situation is aggravating... The HVX200 is a nice camera and I do like it a lot, but I need more. More resolution, more lens options, more storage capacity, more frame rate options... The only thing I need less of is compression - RED definitely helps there too. So that's why I'm switching away from the HVX200... In this market, the next true step up from the HVX200 starts placing the camera body in the $15K or higher range plus media and lenses. So RED is a perfect fit with what it offers and with the price. I'm kinda trying to sell my HVX, but I'm also still using it so haven't go real serious yet. Besides, I may just keep it as a B-Cam, but I don't know if I'll use it much for that... Sold my DVX because I didn't use a secondary camera. If I need a secondary, I may as well just borrow another RED -- Got a few other reservation holders less than 20 minutes away from me in various directions.

Anyway, this isn't the right forum for such a discussion, so I'll stop there before the Panny fanboys jump all over me. But it was mentioned last year at NAB that we could expect 16GB cards by fall or late '06. Do we know where they're at? No. And if they cost more than the 8GB cards do now when they ship, then there's something seriously wrong... The price of FLASH media is plummeting daily. And has been for a while - 8GB cards are still $1150 from a reputable dealer like B&H. I bought 2 8GB cards last March for $1300 when they were scarce and in huge demand. ...Nice price adjustment, I thought they were too expensive for 8GB then. The price now is highway robbery or extortion, whichever term you prefer. Nice to see they're dumping stock by giving away 8GB cards to new camera purchases though.

[Robert Lane]

Jeff,

I don't think anybody will jump all over you; those of us who fully adopted the P2 system have been anxiously awaiting the larger cards and the cost argument has merit - to a degree - and if P2 were nothing more than just "special" RAM I'd probably be just like you, but it's much more than just a storage medium, it's intelligent storage, something SD RAM alone can't offer.

Personally, I like the RED concept and forward-thinking methodologies. If RED proves itself to it's promise I'll probably be one of the people who adopts it's capabilities as well along with my P2 cams. However my personal advice is not to drop the HVX just yet, as I instinctively think that the RED system is going to take a much larger shake-out of initial bugs and workarounds than most realize. It's not just a new camera, it's an entirely new system, codec and company. Consider when the HDV cameras first hit the market, multiply those initial "how do I do *xxx*" by a factor of 5 and you'll get an idea of how RED will probably deploy initially.

[Peter Richardson]

Thanks for refreshing my memory, Robert. I think I was just exasperated at Panny after reading Jeff's post about P2 over at Reduser and decided to post here with the hopes that Jan or another Panny rep might chime in -- the (Panny) natives are growing restless.

Jeff, I am probably one of the biggest Panny fanboys out there but you make some salient points about the limitations of the camera, and more importantly, about the P2 situation. From a camera perspective, I think the HVX200 is what it is at its price point, and it's great -- even somewhat revolutionary. And I know this is why you and I both bought one :) The Red certainly does offer a compelling and truly revolutionary transition to make, though, at a remarkable pricepoint.

I feel that Panny is shooting themselves in the foot with this P2 situation, though Robert's post seems to allude to the fact that the delay has been for more than simply financial reasons ("there were some issues that caused Panny to hold back release until they were 100% sure they were ready"). Let's certainly hope it was technical, and not simply a way to milk the consumer. With Red on the horizon, there are too many compelling alternatives for indy filmmakers to pursue now for Panny to make decisions that, while they may be financially lucrative for the company, compromise the position of their camera in the market.

Regardless, if by now I had already invested in a bunch of 16Gb cards, and 32's were on the way, I'd probably think twice about switching to the Red. But of course I haven't, so the delay just makes the transition a little easier.

Peter

PS I would be willing to bet you a Titanium R (sorry, had to do that) that the 16GB cards, when announced, will cost more than the current 8GB's.

[Robert Lane]

As I say, P2 is a new and evolving technology. However, if you consider the bumps experienced in delivering the P2 system based on the previously released P2 roadmap then you're getting an accurate preview of what RED users will be in for when that system launches, except to a larger degree.

The decision to hold back 16gb cards wasn't a cleverly disguised marketing scheme, it was an effort to ensure that unlike the 4gb cards, which had a few bugs and required an almost immediate firmware update, Panny wants the 16gb cards to be 100% reliable - and faster than the current crop, mainly because there will be more content on these cards and, there will be a MUCH larger footprint of P2 camera users; anyone shooting the SPX800, SPC700, HVX200, HPX2000 and upcoming 500 camera will be using - or wanting to use these cards.

[Peter Richardson]

I agree that it's not fair to insuate that Panny might be engaged in a cleverly disguised marketing scheme, given their track record for being so consumer focused. I would also add that it's not uncommon for other companies to engage in such "cleverly disguised marketing schemes," though just because one company does this, doesn't mean others do, either.

I would apply this same argument to the point made about Red -- that there will necessarily be major delays like this down the road for Red. Probably not a fair assumption to make, seeing as they are so far on schedule, and I seem to remember Panny being much more delayed at this same point -- by months -- with the HVX.

Perhaps it is more a problem with large corporations versus small ones. Sometimes it's just easier to innovate in a smaller corporation led by a single "personality": to wit, Apple and Steve Jobs vs. Microsoft. Perhaps Jim Jannard will be the Steve Jobs of the camera world. We'll see. My point is that, while it is unfair for me to make a less than favorable assumption regarding Panasonic's P2 Card delay, it's also probably less than fair to assume that Red is going to experience exponentially more problems down the road.

Peter

[Robert Lane]

Actually, I was just using RED as an example because of it's mentioning in this thread. There hasn't been one new product - of any type - that hasn't had it's teething issues on first release or growing pains as it matures. I'm all for RED both in product conceptualization and company structure. And since I'm an entrepreneur at heart I can directly relate to Jim's chosen path - and trailblazing efforts.

I expect RED will excel in it's target market but what most people don't understand is that while the camera and it's accessories may be in the "affordable" range when compared to $60k+ camera bodies (and that's what Jim is really going after, the *overpriced-for-what-you-get* HD cams), dealing with 4k footage in post requires a hardware infrastructure that goes well beyond what most people in the handheld HD market can afford or have a solid understanding of. And that is why I don't see RED as a replacement for any current camera system regardless if it's P2, XDCAM or tape-based, it is a entirely new breed of camera unto itself and has a perfect-fit-to-task just like any other system.

[Kevin Shaw]

For what it's worth, I'm hoping Panasonic will release their AVC-intra camera soon so we can stop worrying about P2 memory costs and instead use standard SD memory cards selling for ~$10/GB. A camera based on that would be a good solution for those of us who can't afford P2 cards even if they were available in a 16GB size.

[Sam Jankis]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

I expect RED will excel in it's target market but what most people don't understand is that while the camera and it's accessories may be in the "affordable" range when compared to $60+ camera bodies (and that's what Jim is really going after, the *overpriced-for-what-you-get* HD cams), dealing with 4k footage in post requires a hardware infrastructure that goes well beyond what most people in the handheld HD market can afford or have a solid understanding of. And that is why I don't see RED as a replacement for any current camera system regardless if it's P2, XDCAM or tape-based, it is a entirely new breed of camera unto itself and has a perfect-fit-to-task just like any other system.

My thoughts exactly. It's awesome. The camera and accessories are affordable. However, I can't imagine what kind of processing power I'll need to edit it.

[Robert Lane]

Kevin,

While I understand your point - and desire - there's an important and all too often overlooked distinction between SD memory and P2: intelligence.

For those that don't know, P2 is actually SD RAM arranged in a RAID array. And just like SCSI or Fibre RAID controllers there is also a controller built-into the P2 card which manages throughput, cache and verifies communication I/O. These are critical differences compared to *simple* SD or CF memory which does not have this functionality. That coupled with the UNIX operating system the cameras use allows for operability such as the "repair clip" function, write verifys and other mostly overlooked features of the P2 media.

Yes, SD RAM is capable of fast I/O and it's relatively inexpensive these days but it simply isn't as robust or as reliable as a P2 card.

[David Saraceno]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

Peter,

As mentioned in another thread, the 16gb cards release will coincide with the HPX500. Originally planned for release with the HPX2000 there were some issues that caused Panny to hold back release until they were 100% sure they were ready.

Going forward I'd expect the larger cards may come more frequently and with fewer revisions in the pre-release design as this relatively new technology matures.

Just wondering HOW you know this?

Panasonic has said nothing about price cuts or release dates and certainly as to the latter hasn't met them.

Do you have inside info, or is this an opinion?

[Robert Lane]

Originally Posted by David Saraceno

Do you have inside info, or is this an opinion?

The change of the 16gb card release date has been floating around now for a few months and is public info. The technical details about how and what P2 is comes from my own research, testing and studies since Panny introduced the system.

Just this month I've added the "P2 Specialist" consultation division to my company and to that end I've been added to the Panasonic-sponsored consultants list just a few weeks ago. This does give me insider information but not relating to exact pricing or release dates, mostly technical data and in-the-feild support for Panny customers - what info I get about cost or launch dates comes from whatever info Jan disseminates publicly.

In fact, Jan and I will be giving a presentation @ Abel Cine in CA on Feb 8th about the P2 workflow - y'all 'r welcum to c'mon by!