Cutting/removing the lens off a HVX ?

Dennis Hingsberg · January 28th, 2007, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

I saw a great boxing video a while back on ESPN2 that used 24p and other cinematic tricks, like wild color correction and overcranking. Rather than giving the feel of a live fight, these guys looked like gladiators.

24p definitely has its uses in the real world - specifically to help make it seem beyond reaity.

You sure it wasn't 30p you saw, not 24p? Even most shot for television programs shot on film are shot at 30, not 24 as everyone would have you believe.

Jon Fairhurst · January 28th, 2007, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Hingsberg

You sure it wasn't 30p you saw, not 24p? Even most shot for television programs shot on film are shot at 30, not 24 as everyone would have you believe.

If anything, it might have been shot at 15 fps! It was that noticeable - mainly because of an extremely fast shutter speed. In style it was very similar to the apartment fight scene in the Borne Supremacy, which would have been 24 fps. It's been a while. Coulda been 30, i guess...

Ironically, the Borne movie went for more of a reality look, while the fight documentary went for more of a hyper/artistic look.

Anyway, 24fps can be used for live events or documentaries, but I'd only use it if I were going for a special or film look.

Dennis Hingsberg · February 12th, 2007, 06:29 PM

For those who were kind of interested in the XLH1 resolution vs HVX200 debate that was somewhat out of place for this thread...

Check this out:

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni...200.CCD-WP.pdf

Clearly written by Panasonic but still they make some great claims on pixel shift technology and why a 1920 pixel 1/3" CCD will sacrifice light sensitivity and not produce as good low light images and worse images in SD mode.

They say in one section (page 3) that pixel shift (or spatial offset technology as they like to call it) improves resolution by a factor of 1.5 and that interlace resolution is equivalent to 70% of the vertical pixel count of the progressive CCD.

On the chart on page three where is says "Panasonic" & "Company B" you can see that you are not gaining any vertical resolution with the XHL1 (actually losing just slightly) and then gaining about 46% horizontally but at the expense of MTF (modulation transfer function) ie. image quality!

And for a camera that can do it without an external device you still can't beat the P2 card which allows Intra-frame recording...

Interesting stuff.

Charles Hurley · February 14th, 2007, 12:10 AM

The stock lens on an HVX is rated at f1.6 which is about 1 and 1/3rd stop of light loss. In terms of sensitivity/low light handling the HVX is rated at about iso 120-160. Theoretically is should be more sensitive than the Canon but empirically it's not. Good Luck.

Dennis Hingsberg · February 14th, 2007, 07:01 AM

Hi Charles, thanks for the info. Do you remember where you got those ISO values from? I honestly always thought they were more up in the 300 to 400 range but I could be wrong.

It would be great to knows these values.

Charles Hurley · February 15th, 2007, 01:32 AM

The ISO rating of 320 was derived by exposing a grey card to 40-50 IRE or some other apples to oranges type comparison. The problem is that film has about twice the lattitide of video so while this comparison lines them up in the middle it doesn't hold true at either end regarding lowlights or highlights.
What I know about the Canon it's really just hearsay. I've heard it works well in low light. My own experiences and what I've heard from others about the HVX is "Hey look, it's not that bad after all".

Let me know how it goes. If you hack the nose of an HVX and put a relay, GG, and nikon mount in it's place I'll be the first in line. In fact I'd pay 2G's+ all day long for that kind of mod. A budget 35mm adapter and support system is going to cost you about that much, and they're all unweildy. Just watch yourself and don't get jumped by Panasonic like those Andromeda guys.

Barry Gribble · February 15th, 2007, 07:15 AM

What happened to the Andromeda guys? I never heard? Are they still doing mods?

Charles Hurley · February 15th, 2007, 10:35 AM

I checked out the site a while ago and it looked current. But who's going to go the Andromeda route when it's almost the same thing as an HVX. High def from SD chips using pixel shift and HD native compression. Maybe Dennis H could get together with those guys. They don't seem shy about busting open a camera either.

Dennis some advice. The major work in your idea is going to be the creation of the relay lens portion of the system. 35mm adapters have already been done and the science to them if well established. A Canon XL1 would be a good beta unit because the lens is already off. In fact you could even bust open the 16x for some high quality lenses. How much is an XL1 on ebay?

Dennis Hingsberg · February 15th, 2007, 10:45 AM

Charles, I highly appreciate your contribution to this thread.

Regarding the hack I'm on the fence with which direction of my own to go in. I currently own the mini35 series / XL2 combination but find it only suitable for 75% of situations due to the effective ASA when shooting with it. Believe me, I use lighting with all my work but shooting with a mini35 by your side it almost becomes impractical the amount of lighting you would need in some situations. Imagine lighting for 50ASA film at 1/48th? Ridiculous indeed. I want something better.

Now that the JVC200 & 250 are out though with built in flipping functions I wonder if my efforts would not be best in coming out with a relay lens for JVC, Canon and potentially other lens-less cameras. But then you're not getting any of the HVX functionality in terms of P2. (Still an area I place tremendous value in) What are your comments on this regarding trade-offs between cams?

Hm, I wonder how RED's effective ISO rating was derived, it was said to be between 200 during some tests and 320 by Jim Jannard.

Bryon Akerman · February 15th, 2007, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst
I saw a great boxing video a while back on ESPN2 that used 24p and other cinematic tricks, like wild color correction and overcranking. Rather than giving the feel of a live fight, these guys looked like gladiators.

24p definitely has its uses in the real world - specifically to help make it seem beyond reaity.

I do freelance work for sporting events and they have what they called the super slo mo. It is a camera designed to do nothing but slo motion video. It has an independant line that runs to the truck and into a computer. The output from the computer goes into the router for replays and such.

It does not have varible frame rate, simply one or two slo motion settings.

Very cool, though.

Bryon <><

Charles Hurley · February 17th, 2007, 01:05 PM

I don't know how they determined the ISO of Red but that's more of an oranges to lemons comparison as the Red is supposed to be capable of something silly like 11 stops.
You have the P&S mini 35? Is it the relay lens version?
It's nice to have a reference point before you try and design something yourself. Me personally, I don't believe the HVX is worth the expense of modification. I said earlier that I'd be first in line if it were 2G's and I still would but I don't think that it's a realistic price. Please don't misunderstand the HVX is a great camera, I own one and love it. But at the end of the day you're looking at about 10-12 G's (including lenses) for a cine-modified HVX with marginal resale value.
If you're down with Panny and P2, what about developing a system for the soon to be released ag-hpx500? I don't know if you're hip to it yet but it's a 2/3rd" pro camera, with variable framerates and all the stuff that makes the HVX cool. The cam is going to retail somewhere between 15 and 20 without a lens which will be another 7-20. A relay system could replace the need for the HD lens making this package a little more affordable. Good Luck.

Jon Fairhurst · February 17th, 2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryon Akerman

I do freelance work for sporting events and they have what they called the super slo mo. It is a camera designed to do nothing but slo motion video.

Hi Bryon,

I read that at the Super Bowl CBS had a 300 fps HD super slo mo camera. I'm pretty sure I saw it on one sideline play, simply because it was so dark compared to the typical super slo mo NFL shots. (Too bad about the rain.)

On the boxing video they had the "gladiator" look on real-time stuff - in fact, they may have sped things up. It was a low frame rate with a very fast shutter. I would guess that they could do this by dropping frames from a slo mo cam.

Cool effect for live action.

February 12th, 2007, 06:29 PM	#48
Dennis Hingsberg Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,055	For those who were kind of interested in the XLH1 resolution vs HVX200 debate that was somewhat out of place for this thread... Check this out: ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni...200.CCD-WP.pdf Clearly written by Panasonic but still they make some great claims on pixel shift technology and why a 1920 pixel 1/3" CCD will sacrifice light sensitivity and not produce as good low light images and worse images in SD mode. They say in one section (page 3) that pixel shift (or spatial offset technology as they like to call it) improves resolution by a factor of 1.5 and that interlace resolution is equivalent to 70% of the vertical pixel count of the progressive CCD. On the chart on page three where is says "Panasonic" & "Company B" you can see that you are not gaining any vertical resolution with the XHL1 (actually losing just slightly) and then gaining about 46% horizontally but at the expense of MTF (modulation transfer function) ie. image quality! And for a camera that can do it without an external device you still can't beat the P2 card which allows Intra-frame recording... Interesting stuff. __________________ Blog: www.hingsberg.com Ultimate Exposure Guides for FS5/F7S/F5/F55

February 14th, 2007, 12:10 AM	#49
Charles Hurley Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brooklyn NY Posts: 128	Just in case you were wondering. The stock lens on an HVX is rated at f1.6 which is about 1 and 1/3rd stop of light loss. In terms of sensitivity/low light handling the HVX is rated at about iso 120-160. Theoretically is should be more sensitive than the Canon but empirically it's not. Good Luck.

February 14th, 2007, 07:01 AM	#50
Dennis Hingsberg Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,055	Hi Charles, thanks for the info. Do you remember where you got those ISO values from? I honestly always thought they were more up in the 300 to 400 range but I could be wrong. It would be great to knows these values. __________________ Blog: www.hingsberg.com Ultimate Exposure Guides for FS5/F7S/F5/F55

February 15th, 2007, 07:15 AM	#52
Barry Gribble Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 817	What happened to the Andromeda guys? I never heard? Are they still doing mods? __________________ Barry Gribble Integral Arts, IMDB

February 15th, 2007, 10:45 AM	#54
Dennis Hingsberg Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,055	Charles, I highly appreciate your contribution to this thread. Regarding the hack I'm on the fence with which direction of my own to go in. I currently own the mini35 series / XL2 combination but find it only suitable for 75% of situations due to the effective ASA when shooting with it. Believe me, I use lighting with all my work but shooting with a mini35 by your side it almost becomes impractical the amount of lighting you would need in some situations. Imagine lighting for 50ASA film at 1/48th? Ridiculous indeed. I want something better. Now that the JVC200 & 250 are out though with built in flipping functions I wonder if my efforts would not be best in coming out with a relay lens for JVC, Canon and potentially other lens-less cameras. But then you're not getting any of the HVX functionality in terms of P2. (Still an area I place tremendous value in) What are your comments on this regarding trade-offs between cams? Hm, I wonder how RED's effective ISO rating was derived, it was said to be between 200 during some tests and 320 by Jim Jannard. __________________ Blog: www.hingsberg.com Ultimate Exposure Guides for FS5/F7S/F5/F55

February 15th, 2007, 01:32 AM	#51
Charles Hurley Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brooklyn NY Posts: 128	The ISO rating of 320 was derived by exposing a grey card to 40-50 IRE or some other apples to oranges type comparison. The problem is that film has about twice the lattitide of video so while this comparison lines them up in the middle it doesn't hold true at either end regarding lowlights or highlights. What I know about the Canon it's really just hearsay. I've heard it works well in low light. My own experiences and what I've heard from others about the HVX is "Hey look, it's not that bad after all". Let me know how it goes. If you hack the nose of an HVX and put a relay, GG, and nikon mount in it's place I'll be the first in line. In fact I'd pay 2G's+ all day long for that kind of mod. A budget 35mm adapter and support system is going to cost you about that much, and they're all unweildy. Just watch yourself and don't get jumped by Panasonic like those Andromeda guys.

February 15th, 2007, 10:35 AM	#53
Charles Hurley Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brooklyn NY Posts: 128	I checked out the site a while ago and it looked current. But who's going to go the Andromeda route when it's almost the same thing as an HVX. High def from SD chips using pixel shift and HD native compression. Maybe Dennis H could get together with those guys. They don't seem shy about busting open a camera either. Dennis some advice. The major work in your idea is going to be the creation of the relay lens portion of the system. 35mm adapters have already been done and the science to them if well established. A Canon XL1 would be a good beta unit because the lens is already off. In fact you could even bust open the 16x for some high quality lenses. How much is an XL1 on ebay?

February 15th, 2007, 11:15 AM	#55
Bryon Akerman Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 175	Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst I saw a great boxing video a while back on ESPN2 that used 24p and other cinematic tricks, like wild color correction and overcranking. Rather than giving the feel of a live fight, these guys looked like gladiators. 24p definitely has its uses in the real world - specifically to help make it seem beyond reaity. I do freelance work for sporting events and they have what they called the super slo mo. It is a camera designed to do nothing but slo motion video. It has an independant line that runs to the truck and into a computer. The output from the computer goes into the router for replays and such. It does not have varible frame rate, simply one or two slo motion settings. Very cool, though. Bryon <>< __________________ Commandment #11- "Thou shalt Render as thou goest." "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Prov. 1:7)

February 17th, 2007, 01:05 PM	#56
Charles Hurley Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brooklyn NY Posts: 128	I don't know how they determined the ISO of Red but that's more of an oranges to lemons comparison as the Red is supposed to be capable of something silly like 11 stops. You have the P&S mini 35? Is it the relay lens version? It's nice to have a reference point before you try and design something yourself. Me personally, I don't believe the HVX is worth the expense of modification. I said earlier that I'd be first in line if it were 2G's and I still would but I don't think that it's a realistic price. Please don't misunderstand the HVX is a great camera, I own one and love it. But at the end of the day you're looking at about 10-12 G's (including lenses) for a cine-modified HVX with marginal resale value. If you're down with Panny and P2, what about developing a system for the soon to be released ag-hpx500? I don't know if you're hip to it yet but it's a 2/3rd" pro camera, with variable framerates and all the stuff that makes the HVX cool. The cam is going to retail somewhere between 15 and 20 without a lens which will be another 7-20. A relay system could replace the need for the HD lens making this package a little more affordable. Good Luck.