CinePorter Question: at DVinfo.net

Denis Danatzko · December 17th, 2006, 10:30 AM

I'm hoping either Barry Green, or David Linetsy (or someone else familiar with - or close to development of - the CinePorter) can answer this question.

I expect to soon take on some legal video work (depositions, wills, etc.) to supplement my income. I've learned that the preferred length of a recording is 2 hrs, to coincide with the VHS copy most attorneys want, on a tape-for-tape basis, i.e. 1 80-minute mini-DV tape shot at LP would equate to 1 2-hour VHS tape. The 1-for-1 situation makes for easier tape management.

The only way to achieve that is by using 80 minute tapes at LP. (Despite the LP, that is what some of the clients want). I know the CinePorter would allow recording times MUCH longer than that for min-DV quality. However, the HVX Owner's Manual explicitly states that 80 minute tapes should NOT be used, even if they are sold under the Panasonic label. (From what I gather, they're too thin for the HVX transport mechanism).

For depositions, having Date and Time stamps appear on the footage is SOP - if not mandatory - in my state. Howver, Barry's "HVX Book" explicitly states that Date and Time are never output via the FireWire port.

I've considered using an HDD such as the CitiDisk HD to achieve the lengthier recording time, but that uses only the FireWire port, thus preventing the appearance of Date and Time.

This may seem either a foolish or minor question, but here goes: since the CinePorter is intended to use the P2 slots of the HVX, will Date/Time stamps be written to footage? I'm presuming it will, as it's intended to "replace" the P2 cards, but I'm looking for confirmation from an authoritative source.

Looking forward to replies.

Gunleik Groven · December 17th, 2006, 04:08 PM

What you could do is to take the component out from the HVX and capture that through an AD converter directly to your computer (like AJA/Decklink).

Would probably be cheaper, and would give kind of unlimited recording times with date stamps.

Gunleik

Ned Soltz · December 17th, 2006, 05:44 PM

The HVX really isn't what you want for this kind of work.

Cineporter has not been released and CitiDisk doesn't work. The viable direct to disk recording method is the FS-100. But this workflow really is not suited to continuous 1 hour clips. I would honestly shoot this with a good DV camera like a PD170 or DVX to DV tape and simultaneously output via S-Video either to VHS recorder or DVD recorder.

Ned Soltz

Dean Sensui · December 17th, 2006, 06:10 PM

... or you could still use the HVX and go Firewire out to a DVCam recorder. The Sony DVCam recorders that take full-sized cassettes (DSR-20, etc) can record up to three hours continuously.

Mike Schrengohst · December 17th, 2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean Sensui

... or you could still use the HVX and go Firewire out to a DVCam recorder. The Sony DVCam recorders that take full-sized cassettes (DSR-20, etc) can record up to three hours continuously.

Thats good advice....
I thought we have moved beyond VHS???
Why wouldn't they want a DVD instead.....

Chris Hurd · December 17th, 2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schrengohst

I thought we have moved beyond VHS???
Why wouldn't they want a DVD instead...

Nope. The lion's share of legal video work including depositions, probate etc. is still delivered on VHS. That's what attorneys want. Most high school athletics is still the same way as well.

Mike Schrengohst · December 17th, 2006, 08:32 PM

I guess if you get paid $500 per hour you would want the slowest way to search a video to make notes.....
Don't they just get it transcribed anyway? I would not think they would really use a video unless it went to trial?

Sam Jankis · December 17th, 2006, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Nope. The lion's share of legal video work including depositions, probate etc. is still delivered on VHS. That's what attorneys want. Most high school athletics is still the same way as well.

My buddy who does a lot of legal video is switching backups from VHS to DVD. It's pretty hard to find non-combo VCRs these days... and those that aren't are huge beasts. I think he got a Sony DVDirect. I was impressed when he showed how he could pause it or stop it... and continue burning later. The only real downside is finalizing discs takes a few minutes, but you can always wait to finalize them.

I'll be using this device for quick n' easy dailies. The unit auto-creates chapters every 5 minutes (default).

Don Donatello · December 18th, 2006, 12:20 AM

"Cineporter has not been released "

i haven't been keeping up on the HVX and cineporter for over a year .. wasn't cineporter suppose to be ready over a year ago ????
am i missing something ? is this rocket science ?
what is taking so long ? is there a person working full time on it ? or once a month ?

Barry Green · December 18th, 2006, 12:45 AM

Why don't you ask Thomson Grass Valley the same question about the Infinity, which was supposed to be released over a year ago... maybe they also only have one guy working on it once a month?

Or maybe it's because this is an inordinately complex task, and getting it right takes time?

It'll be released when it's ready. It will hopefully not be released before it's ready. And it won't be ready until it's ready.

Denis Danatzko · December 18th, 2006, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

The lion's share of legal video work including depositions, probate etc. is still delivered on VHS. That's what attorneys want.

Chris,
Actually, it's not just attorneys. At least for depositions, a copy also goes to the court/judge involved in the case. Objections made during a deposition must be ruled on later by the judge. So objections must be logged by time stamp so the judge can fast-forward to the objection. That's normally done using the free-running time stamp as the reference. While some courthouses have equipment newer than VHS, it is not considered the job of attorneys and/or judges to be "technicians" so to speak and know how to run a bunch of different players.

Also, analog recordings more easily show telltale signs if they've been "doctored" to change testimony, while "doctoring" of DV is easier to do and harder to recognize. Desipte that, some attorneys do ask for DVDs, but usually a minimum of 3 copies must be made - 1 for the defendent's attorney, 1 for the plaitiff, and 1 for the court. And once a deposition is completed, the attorneys don't want to wait around while extra copies are made. The copies are usually express-shipped to them by the videographer.

The CinePorter would not limit me to DV but would allow use of other formats for non-legal work, e.g. DVCPRO up to DVCPROHD.

As for outputing over firewire to another deck or camera, that still goes against what Barry states in "The HVX Book", i.e. that Date and Time will never be output to firewire. I'm not sure how outputing to another camera or deck via firewire would overcome that. From Barry's book, I got the impression that date & time are prevented from going out the firewire port and that "limitation" could not be overcome. Because the CinePorter doesn't use Firewire, I wouldn't have to deal with the limitation.

Thanks again.

David Linetsky · December 18th, 2006, 07:46 AM

Hi Denis,

The CinePorter, records all the Meta Data which which should give you the information you want.

Look for some announcements on our web site soon regarding release dates and such.

David

Denis Danatzko · December 18th, 2006, 09:30 AM

(and not to be a pita), when I think of meta data, I envision data such as scene file info, e.g. shutter speed, aperture, zoom number, etc., such as could be saved to a memory card in the HVX.

I need the date and free-running time-of-day showing hour-of-day, minutes, and seconds, as taken from the internal time-of-day clock and calendar, and as shown in the viewfinder while the camera is recording. For a deposition, at least, the date and time-of-day must show on the final footage and be visible for all to see. That is what I understand Barry to mean is NOT output over firewire. I may be wrong, but because it's basically a calendar and clock function that I need, I don''t think that is really considered meta data.

Can you confirm that date and time normally available through the viewfinder will, in fact, be recorded to the cinePorter?

Thanks.

Don Donatello · December 18th, 2006, 03:15 PM

"It'll be released when it's ready"

at some point one has to say what the heck is taking so long and add some new brains on the crew ...
this is recording data to hard drive not building a whole camera ... if somebody(s) has been working on cineporter for 1 1/2 years everyday and doesn't have it yet =TIME to DELETE some persons or give it to another/new crew/person !!!!!

"

Martin Iverson · December 18th, 2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Donatello

"It'll be released when it's ready"

at some point one has to say what the heck is taking so long and add some new brains on the crew ...
this is recording data to hard drive not building a whole camera ... if somebody(s) has been working on cineporter for 1 1/2 years everyday and doesn't have it yet =TIME to DELETE some persons or give it to another/new crew/person !!!!!

That seems like a short sighted statement if not simply rude. Consider that various engineers have been making video cameras for decades. There are plenty of successes and failures in the history of video engineering from which to draw from when designing a new one. In spite of this fact the HVX was delayed for how long?

No one has ever engineered a P2 external storage device. There is no pre-existing device from which to draw ideas from. They are, so to speak, inventing the wheel. The delay of one year for the cineporter seems appropriate, and if the wait for the HVX is any indication, it will be worth the wait.

December 17th, 2006, 10:30 AM	#1
Denis Danatzko Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NYC Metro area Posts: 579	CinePorter Question: I'm hoping either Barry Green, or David Linetsy (or someone else familiar with - or close to development of - the CinePorter) can answer this question. I expect to soon take on some legal video work (depositions, wills, etc.) to supplement my income. I've learned that the preferred length of a recording is 2 hrs, to coincide with the VHS copy most attorneys want, on a tape-for-tape basis, i.e. 1 80-minute mini-DV tape shot at LP would equate to 1 2-hour VHS tape. The 1-for-1 situation makes for easier tape management. The only way to achieve that is by using 80 minute tapes at LP. (Despite the LP, that is what some of the clients want). I know the CinePorter would allow recording times MUCH longer than that for min-DV quality. However, the HVX Owner's Manual explicitly states that 80 minute tapes should NOT be used, even if they are sold under the Panasonic label. (From what I gather, they're too thin for the HVX transport mechanism). For depositions, having Date and Time stamps appear on the footage is SOP - if not mandatory - in my state. Howver, Barry's "HVX Book" explicitly states that Date and Time are never output via the FireWire port. I've considered using an HDD such as the CitiDisk HD to achieve the lengthier recording time, but that uses only the FireWire port, thus preventing the appearance of Date and Time. This may seem either a foolish or minor question, but here goes: since the CinePorter is intended to use the P2 slots of the HVX, will Date/Time stamps be written to footage? I'm presuming it will, as it's intended to "replace" the P2 cards, but I'm looking for confirmation from an authoritative source. Looking forward to replies. __________________ Denis ------------ Our actions are based on our own experience and knowledge. Thus, no one is ever totally right, nor totally wrong. We simply act from what we "know" to be true, based on that experience and knowledge. Beyond that, we pose questions to others.

December 17th, 2006, 04:08 PM	#2
Gunleik Groven Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Espa - Norway Posts: 151	What you could do is to take the component out from the HVX and capture that through an AD converter directly to your computer (like AJA/Decklink). Would probably be cheaper, and would give kind of unlimited recording times with date stamps. Gunleik __________________ Red? Sure!

December 17th, 2006, 06:10 PM	#4
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	... or you could still use the HVX and go Firewire out to a DVCam recorder. The Sony DVCam recorders that take full-sized cassettes (DSR-20, etc) can record up to three hours continuously. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

December 17th, 2006, 08:32 PM	#7
Mike Schrengohst Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 355	I guess if you get paid $500 per hour you would want the slowest way to search a video to make notes..... Don't they just get it transcribed anyway? I would not think they would really use a video unless it went to trial? __________________ Mike Schrengohst dvd.pro@verizon.net

December 18th, 2006, 09:30 AM	#13
Denis Danatzko Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NYC Metro area Posts: 579	Just so we're "on the same page"... (and not to be a pita), when I think of meta data, I envision data such as scene file info, e.g. shutter speed, aperture, zoom number, etc., such as could be saved to a memory card in the HVX. I need the date and free-running time-of-day showing hour-of-day, minutes, and seconds, as taken from the internal time-of-day clock and calendar, and as shown in the viewfinder while the camera is recording. For a deposition, at least, the date and time-of-day must show on the final footage and be visible for all to see. That is what I understand Barry to mean is NOT output over firewire. I may be wrong, but because it's basically a calendar and clock function that I need, I don''t think that is really considered meta data. Can you confirm that date and time normally available through the viewfinder will, in fact, be recorded to the cinePorter? Thanks. __________________ Denis ------------ Our actions are based on our own experience and knowledge. Thus, no one is ever totally right, nor totally wrong. We simply act from what we "know" to be true, based on that experience and knowledge. Beyond that, we pose questions to others.

December 17th, 2006, 05:44 PM	#3
Ned Soltz Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Teaneck, NJ Posts: 659	The HVX really isn't what you want for this kind of work. Cineporter has not been released and CitiDisk doesn't work. The viable direct to disk recording method is the FS-100. But this workflow really is not suited to continuous 1 hour clips. I would honestly shoot this with a good DV camera like a PD170 or DVX to DV tape and simultaneously output via S-Video either to VHS recorder or DVD recorder. Ned Soltz

December 18th, 2006, 12:20 AM	#9
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	"Cineporter has not been released " i haven't been keeping up on the HVX and cineporter for over a year .. wasn't cineporter suppose to be ready over a year ago ???? am i missing something ? is this rocket science ? what is taking so long ? is there a person working full time on it ? or once a month ?

December 18th, 2006, 12:45 AM	#10
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Why don't you ask Thomson Grass Valley the same question about the Infinity, which was supposed to be released over a year ago... maybe they also only have one guy working on it once a month? Or maybe it's because this is an inordinately complex task, and getting it right takes time? It'll be released when it's ready. It will hopefully not be released before it's ready. And it won't be ready until it's ready.

December 18th, 2006, 07:46 AM	#12
David Linetsky Specialized Communications Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 45	Hi Denis, The CinePorter, records all the Meta Data which which should give you the information you want. Look for some announcements on our web site soon regarding release dates and such. David

December 18th, 2006, 03:15 PM	#14
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	"It'll be released when it's ready" at some point one has to say what the heck is taking so long and add some new brains on the crew ... this is recording data to hard drive not building a whole camera ... if somebody(s) has been working on cineporter for 1 1/2 years everyday and doesn't have it yet =TIME to DELETE some persons or give it to another/new crew/person !!!!! "