HVX Color Sample Clip at DVinfo.net

Robert Lane · August 14th, 2006, 07:26 AM

The HVX color test I've been promising is up.

First, a special thanks to Michael @ MotionzoneHD.com for hosting the file, it's a big one: 100MB. Don't expect it to last forever since it's a free download off his servers.

Since my first (albeit bungled) outdoor color tests were less than great I knew that the HVX would do much better once I tweaked the other settings that I had forgotten to.

The purpose of the test was twofold:

1 - Show the true color capabilities of the HVX before any post correction work.

2 - Find a color setup that (for my purposes) had more of a "chrome" look and feel to it or as close to it as possible in-camera. My background has been commercial photography first, so I'm partial to the look of Velvia/Ektachrome.

This setup is NOT one that is recommended for all types of subject material. In fact, if this were done in a studio environment or one with lots of skin tone I'd probably stick with Scene File 6 - and tweak it a bit.

This isn't a color chart test done in controlled situations; the clips are all short but the targets are real-world all with typically difficult targets for video: Blue sky, magenta/deep reds, color detail in shadow and of course, low light (low for video that is). I threw in a fun end sequence that really shows how well the HVX does at low-light/sunset.

These are same-scene comparisons are all shot at 720p24PN with 5600k preset White Balance and switch from the DEFAULT Scene File 1 setting to my custom settings which are:

- FILM CAM mode
- 200 deg shutter angle
- Detail +5
- V. Detail 0
- Detail Coring +4
- Chroma +7
- Temp 0
- Master Ped -8
- A. Iris Level 0
- News Gamma - OFF
- Gamma - HD NORM
- KNEE - MID
- Matrix - NORM
- Skin tone - OFF

If you're looking for better color from the HVX then consider the settings above as a jump-off point to start your own tests. I promise that whatever your preferred subject/target is you'll find an amazing color space for it.

Here's the link - right click download/save : http://www.motionzonehd.com/files/fo...Color_Test.mov

I originally encoded this H.264 as "best" quality but the file was over 300meg, so it was re-encoded at "high" to save Michael some bandwidth; i didn't notice any major quality degredation from the original.

If you have the ability to see this on a plasma monitor in full-screen it will amaze you how good the HVX really is with color.

Enjoy.

PS - Part of the last sequence was shot in VFR, just for fun.

Leonard Levy · August 14th, 2006, 09:13 AM

Robert,
While I'm waiting for my clips to download I can't help but ask if this means you've decided the HVX is sharp enough after all.

I have a few questions about the setup , but I'll wait till I've looked.

Robert Lane · August 14th, 2006, 09:27 AM

Leonard,

There's no doubt that the HVX is the least sharp of the sub-$10k HD/HDV cameras. I can tell you it's not the lens; that Leica glass has more resolving power than the chips are able to capture, which stands to reason since it does have the smallest chip array than the rest of the pack. I can't prove the theory, but all my discussions with those crazy Black Forest engineers tell me that's the case and based on my experience with using Leica to EOS adapters, I'm putting my money on that theory.

It's a simple matter of imager real-estate; you can only get so much resolution from any given amount of pixels, period.

Is the HVX "sharp enough"? You decide - for me it will cover 95% of what I shoot. The rest I'll cover with a larger chipset body.

August 14th, 2006, 11:46 AM

Robert,

Nice Job on that. I liked it all, but the airplane samples were the best, especially with being able to see the heat waves and jet emissions, and the way they all moved around as the plane approached. Combined with the music, I was waiting to see Al Pacino & Robert De Niro run accross the runway.

If it's not too off-topic - what kind of external monitor are you using while adjusting your custom presets?

Michael Younger · August 14th, 2006, 12:01 PM

Thanks for posting that, great information and examples.

Robert Lane · August 14th, 2006, 04:27 PM

Glad you liked it, Derek. Who said something informational in nature can't be fun too!?

I'm always, as in 100% using my Marshall V-R70P-HDA. The built-in LCD has far too little res for focusing and the EVF is even less useful. However, I did balance my Marshall to the flip-out LCD for exposure and contrast, that way I know for sure that what the Marshall shows is correct.

To date, the best flip-out LCD I've ever used is on the Z1 and I hope that Panasonic makes a significant upgrade to their LCD when version "A" of the HVX - if ever created - is released.

In a perfect world, somebody would make a digi-video cam that has a pass-through optical viewfinder just like film cameras have.

Chris Barcellos · August 14th, 2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

In a perfect world, somebody would make a digi-video cam that has a pass-through optical viewfinder just like film cameras have.

I am curious why you would want that. It seams like you would want to see what you were getting laid down on the video track, rather than what it "might" look like. That's what I thought one of the benefits of video was--that assuming a decent viewfinder and/or LCD rendition, you have a better grasp at the time of the shoot as to what you've got.

Robert Lane · August 14th, 2006, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I am curious why you would want that. It seams like you would want to see what you were getting laid down on the video track, rather than what it "might" look like.

Actually, my thought was an optical pass-thru in additon to an LCD flip-out for quick reference using the LCD for exposure check and the optical for focus/framing. Unless you're in an event situation where light is constantly changing, once you've set the exposure for a scene you typically don't need to worry about it.

But that's all pipe dream stuff anyway, not practical information.

Leonard Levy · August 15th, 2006, 12:50 AM

Robert,
Did you try going all out on detail i.e. +7 on detail and perhaps even upping vertical detail (+7?)

Barry Green said that even with detail all the way up on the HVX he thought it never looked over-enhanced and it never looked as enhanced as the other HDV cameras with their detail levels very low or even off in some cases. Hope i'm not misrepresenting him there.

i've never made the comparisons myself.

Philip Williams · August 15th, 2006, 07:49 AM

Hey Robert, those plane shots were absolutely top notch. Really looks like the quality I'd expect in a feature.

www.philipwilliams.com

Robert Lane · August 15th, 2006, 10:19 AM

Leonard,

I didn't try any vertical detail adjustments; I found what I wanted and kept those settings.

Philip,

Glad you liked the sequence; as I mentioned in the post my goal was to find a color space that looked more "chrome-like" from the HVX. I think I got close.

Enclosed are some examples of stills shot with my beloved film cameras from that same vantage point. During the winter months when the sun is in a "better" position we get some very dramatic sunset colors which make for pretty stunning images. These are from my stock library, all shot on E100VS with either the 1V-HS or F5.

Mike Quick · August 15th, 2006, 10:32 PM

Nice work. I've just recently purchased this camera and from all the footage I've seen people shooting on this forum, I'm more and more glad I did buy this camera.

I have a question though, if you don't mind. The knee didn't allow me to change the setting, it remained blue. I've been renting the P2 cards to do my test and don't have one on me right now. So my question is, do I need a P2 card in the slot to be able to change the settings that are in blue?

Again, nice work. Thanks for the sample.

Barry Green · August 15th, 2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonard Levy

Barry Green said that even with detail all the way up on the HVX he thought it never looked over-enhanced and it never looked as enhanced as the other HDV cameras with their detail levels very low or even off in some cases. Hope i'm not misrepresenting him there.

It's not that it never looks over-enhanced, because there are times that it will. But in general, for general subjects, I find +3 easily acceptable, +5 is usually fine, and +7 can even work but it can get edgy.

In comparison to the other cameras, +7 on the HVX equates to about -6 on the JVC, and +15 on the Sony. The Sony defaults to +11, which equates to about +3 on the HVX. The Canon at minimum was about equivalent to the HVX at -3, but I haven't had a chance to compare further, all I know is that we couldn't get the Canon's edge enhancement down any lower and we had to crank the other cameras up some to match.

Leonard Levy · August 16th, 2006, 01:09 PM

Barry,
Thanks for that info. I am curious about a few enhancement issues.

- How do you measure and compare edge enhancement and separate that from inherent sharpness?

- When would you change the vertical detail setting. This one has always been a mystery to me.

- We just got an M2 35mm adapter and have started to experiment with higher detail levels to offset the enherent loss of sharpness from the adapter.
Has anyone played with this?
Any thoughts about whether it will look enhanced?

Just looking at a resolution chart with the M2 and a 50mm Nikkor if I go to +7 on both overall detail and vertical detail, the chart looks considerably sharper without showing any obvious enhancment artifacts. So far I'm just looking on a 17" Panasonic though and still just looking at a chart. So far we're still trying to get an optimum set-up with the M2 ( which is more trouble than I expected.)

Also I'm not that familiar with the Sony. If it defaults at +11, what is the full range of numbers - does it have negative settings?

Leonard Levy · August 16th, 2006, 01:12 PM

Mike,
If a setting is in blue, that means it cannot be changed due to some other setting. For example, I believe that the knees cannot be adjusted in the Cine Gamma settings, if you change your gamma, the knee will switch out of blue to a changeable setting.
The P2 card will not affect your ability to change settings.

August 14th, 2006, 07:26 AM	#1
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	HVX Color Sample Clip The HVX color test I've been promising is up. First, a special thanks to Michael @ MotionzoneHD.com for hosting the file, it's a big one: 100MB. Don't expect it to last forever since it's a free download off his servers. Since my first (albeit bungled) outdoor color tests were less than great I knew that the HVX would do much better once I tweaked the other settings that I had forgotten to. The purpose of the test was twofold: 1 - Show the true color capabilities of the HVX before any post correction work. 2 - Find a color setup that (for my purposes) had more of a "chrome" look and feel to it or as close to it as possible in-camera. My background has been commercial photography first, so I'm partial to the look of Velvia/Ektachrome. This setup is NOT one that is recommended for all types of subject material. In fact, if this were done in a studio environment or one with lots of skin tone I'd probably stick with Scene File 6 - and tweak it a bit. This isn't a color chart test done in controlled situations; the clips are all short but the targets are real-world all with typically difficult targets for video: Blue sky, magenta/deep reds, color detail in shadow and of course, low light (low for video that is). I threw in a fun end sequence that really shows how well the HVX does at low-light/sunset. These are same-scene comparisons are all shot at 720p24PN with 5600k preset White Balance and switch from the DEFAULT Scene File 1 setting to my custom settings which are: - FILM CAM mode - 200 deg shutter angle - Detail +5 - V. Detail 0 - Detail Coring +4 - Chroma +7 - Temp 0 - Master Ped -8 - A. Iris Level 0 - News Gamma - OFF - Gamma - HD NORM - KNEE - MID - Matrix - NORM - Skin tone - OFF If you're looking for better color from the HVX then consider the settings above as a jump-off point to start your own tests. I promise that whatever your preferred subject/target is you'll find an amazing color space for it. Here's the link - right click download/save : http://www.motionzonehd.com/files/fo...Color_Test.mov I originally encoded this H.264 as "best" quality but the file was over 300meg, so it was re-encoded at "high" to save Michael some bandwidth; i didn't notice any major quality degredation from the original. If you have the ability to see this on a plasma monitor in full-screen it will amaze you how good the HVX really is with color. Enjoy. PS - Part of the last sequence was shot in VFR, just for fun.

August 14th, 2006, 11:46 AM	#4
Guest Posts: n/a	Wow Robert, Nice Job on that. I liked it all, but the airplane samples were the best, especially with being able to see the heat waves and jet emissions, and the way they all moved around as the plane approached. Combined with the music, I was waiting to see Al Pacino & Robert De Niro run accross the runway. If it's not too off-topic - what kind of external monitor are you using while adjusting your custom presets?

August 15th, 2006, 10:19 AM	#11
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	Leonard, I didn't try any vertical detail adjustments; I found what I wanted and kept those settings. Philip, Glad you liked the sequence; as I mentioned in the post my goal was to find a color space that looked more "chrome-like" from the HVX. I think I got close. Enclosed are some examples of stills shot with my beloved film cameras from that same vantage point. During the winter months when the sun is in a "better" position we get some very dramatic sunset colors which make for pretty stunning images. These are from my stock library, all shot on E100VS with either the 1V-HS or F5. Last edited by Robert Lane; August 19th, 2006 at 12:32 AM.

August 15th, 2006, 10:32 PM	#12
Mike Quick Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 36	Nice! Nice work. I've just recently purchased this camera and from all the footage I've seen people shooting on this forum, I'm more and more glad I did buy this camera. I have a question though, if you don't mind. The knee didn't allow me to change the setting, it remained blue. I've been renting the P2 cards to do my test and don't have one on me right now. So my question is, do I need a P2 card in the slot to be able to change the settings that are in blue? Again, nice work. Thanks for the sample.

August 14th, 2006, 09:13 AM	#2
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Robert, While I'm waiting for my clips to download I can't help but ask if this means you've decided the HVX is sharp enough after all. I have a few questions about the setup , but I'll wait till I've looked.

August 14th, 2006, 09:27 AM	#3
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	Leonard, There's no doubt that the HVX is the least sharp of the sub-$10k HD/HDV cameras. I can tell you it's not the lens; that Leica glass has more resolving power than the chips are able to capture, which stands to reason since it does have the smallest chip array than the rest of the pack. I can't prove the theory, but all my discussions with those crazy Black Forest engineers tell me that's the case and based on my experience with using Leica to EOS adapters, I'm putting my money on that theory. It's a simple matter of imager real-estate; you can only get so much resolution from any given amount of pixels, period. Is the HVX "sharp enough"? You decide - for me it will cover 95% of what I shoot. The rest I'll cover with a larger chipset body.

August 14th, 2006, 12:01 PM	#5
Michael Younger New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Baltimore Posts: 15	Thanks for posting that, great information and examples.

August 14th, 2006, 04:27 PM	#6
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	Glad you liked it, Derek. Who said something informational in nature can't be fun too!? I'm always, as in 100% using my Marshall V-R70P-HDA. The built-in LCD has far too little res for focusing and the EVF is even less useful. However, I did balance my Marshall to the flip-out LCD for exposure and contrast, that way I know for sure that what the Marshall shows is correct. To date, the best flip-out LCD I've ever used is on the Z1 and I hope that Panasonic makes a significant upgrade to their LCD when version "A" of the HVX - if ever created - is released. In a perfect world, somebody would make a digi-video cam that has a pass-through optical viewfinder just like film cameras have.

August 15th, 2006, 12:50 AM	#9
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Robert, Did you try going all out on detail i.e. +7 on detail and perhaps even upping vertical detail (+7?) Barry Green said that even with detail all the way up on the HVX he thought it never looked over-enhanced and it never looked as enhanced as the other HDV cameras with their detail levels very low or even off in some cases. Hope i'm not misrepresenting him there. i've never made the comparisons myself.

August 15th, 2006, 07:49 AM	#10
Philip Williams Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Snellville, Georgia Posts: 614	Hey Robert, those plane shots were absolutely top notch. Really looks like the quality I'd expect in a feature. www.philipwilliams.com

August 16th, 2006, 01:09 PM	#14
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Barry, Thanks for that info. I am curious about a few enhancement issues. - How do you measure and compare edge enhancement and separate that from inherent sharpness? - When would you change the vertical detail setting. This one has always been a mystery to me. - We just got an M2 35mm adapter and have started to experiment with higher detail levels to offset the enherent loss of sharpness from the adapter. Has anyone played with this? Any thoughts about whether it will look enhanced? Just looking at a resolution chart with the M2 and a 50mm Nikkor if I go to +7 on both overall detail and vertical detail, the chart looks considerably sharper without showing any obvious enhancment artifacts. So far I'm just looking on a 17" Panasonic though and still just looking at a chart. So far we're still trying to get an optimum set-up with the M2 ( which is more trouble than I expected.) Also I'm not that familiar with the Sony. If it defaults at +11, what is the full range of numbers - does it have negative settings?

August 16th, 2006, 01:12 PM	#15
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Mike, If a setting is in blue, that means it cannot be changed due to some other setting. For example, I believe that the knees cannot be adjusted in the Cine Gamma settings, if you change your gamma, the knee will switch out of blue to a changeable setting. The P2 card will not affect your ability to change settings.