HVX and the Film Look at DVinfo.net

Robert Lane · July 21st, 2006, 08:36 AM

I'm currently in production on the biggest project I've ever done (more details when the website is updated) but just yesterday found the "magic touch" for getting really good looking film-like looks from the HVX.

As I've always said, acheiving ANY look in-camera comes from good composition and lighting skills which of course we're using in the studio currently, but I also experimented with GAMMA settings that I previously had not.

Yesterday we did a skin tone test with a model, GMB Color Checker and Kodak IT8 cards. After half an hour of playing with KNEE, PEDESTAL and a few other camera setups I tried the built-in "CINELIKE D" gamma setting - that did the trick!

Shooting in 720p 24P(N) with the CINELIKE D gamma setting gives us the most film-like look - from a color/chroma perspective - than I've ever seen from any of the HD/HDV cameras - I'm just flat-out amazed.

I must admit, that until yesterday I had snubbed my nose at built-in gamma settings in the HVX because of experiences with the XL2 "frame" mode and the Z1 CINEFRAME mode, niether of which looked good at all to me. But like I say, after we all looked at the A-B difference between HD NORM and CINELIKE D, it was plainly clear that Panasonic nailed it for a film-like output.

Justyn Rowe · July 21st, 2006, 08:44 AM

Robert,

I have found the same thing out too. I pretty much leave it in Cine D all the time and I keep the low-noise settings pretty much there as well. The only time I have switched is sometimes I use the newsgamma when I have to bump up the gain...

Can't wait to see what you come up with. I wholeheartedly concure that this cam gives the most filmic representation. It gives off a WOW factor when there's a nice bright highlight.. and I personally love to push that hotspot as much as I can. I think the cam handles highlights so friggin well...

I'm just itching to get to my narrative project that commences in August. I do feel glad though that I've spent so much time on live events and uncontrolled lighting situations because I now know what the camera likes and dislikes.... Having this cam makes shooting fun again...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

I'm currently in production on the biggest project I've ever done (more details when the website is updated) but just yesterday found the "magic touch" for getting really good looking film-like looks from the HVX.

As I've always said, acheiving ANY look in-camera comes from good composition and lighting skills which of course we're using in the studio currently, but I also experimented with GAMMA settings that I previously had not.

Yesterday we did a skin tone test with a model, GMB Color Checker and Kodak IT8 cards. After half an hour of playing with KNEE, PEDESTAL and a few other camera setups I tried the built-in "CINELIKE D" gamma setting - that did the trick!

Shooting in 720p 24P(N) with the CINELIKE D gamma setting gives us the most film-like look - from a color/chroma perspective - than I've ever seen from any of the HD/HDV cameras - I'm just flat-out amazed.

I must admit, that until yesterday I had snubbed my nose at built-in gamma settings in the HVX because of experiences with the XL2 "frame" mode and the Z1 CINEFRAME mode, niether of which looked good at all to me. But like I say, after we all looked at the A-B difference between HD NORM and CINELIKE D, it was plainly clear that Panasonic nailed it for a film-like output.

David Saraceno · July 21st, 2006, 08:46 AM

Robert:

To understand, all you did was access the setting for CINELIKE D gamma, and then used the cam without changing anything else?

Justyn Rowe · July 21st, 2006, 09:25 AM

Yep. Pretty much. For your own taste, I'd recommend doing a camera test going through all the presets.. and sending the video to a good external video monitor... An HD monitor with color adjustments is the best, I guess. There is quite a difference in the modes. Barry Green has a lot more info on this and other stuff. I"M pretty much a creature of habit. I find something I like and stick with it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Saraceno

Robert:

To understand, all you did was access the setting for CINELIKE D gamma, and then used the cam without changing anything else?

Robert Lane · July 21st, 2006, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Saraceno

Robert:

To understand, all you did was access the setting for CINELIKE D gamma, and then used the cam without changing anything else?

We first tried manually changing all the sub-settings for color/chroma in the menu. On a whim, I decided to see if the built-in CINELIKE D looked as good as what we were doing manually - it actually looked a tad better, so we're sticking with it.

I can't imagine shooting this camera any other way to create a film-look.

Phil Hover · July 21st, 2006, 10:35 AM

Several people including myself feel that setting the shutter to 200 in film cam mode instead of 180 gives the most filmic motion with the HVX.

Justyn Rowe · July 21st, 2006, 07:05 PM

Phil... That is very interesting, I might have to try that. I have had interesting results at a 90 degree and also at the 350 degree. Thanks for the tip.

Sergio Perez · July 21st, 2006, 08:08 PM

Guys, here's a tip from personal experience. Only use 25 or 24 shutter when in extreme low light situations. Why? Your image well get too soft and stuttery. In my experience, anything above 48 gives a good soilid image.

Phil Hover · July 21st, 2006, 09:31 PM

Its all about a look and the HVX gives you a lot of options (120 to 1000 shutter for 60p looks great) Extremely high speed action - use a 1000 shutter and it really sharpens up the look compared to a 1/60 shutter. Plus, you can pull great stills.

Without a lot of action or a still frame, 1/24 looks alright.

Robert Lane · July 23rd, 2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Hover

Several people including myself feel that setting the shutter to 200 in film cam mode instead of 180 gives the most filmic motion with the HVX.

Interesting concept, Phil. We're going to test this in the studio tomorrow and see what we get.

Mathieu Ghekiere · July 23rd, 2006, 01:13 PM

Can someone post some of this Cinegamma D footage?
Or even a comparison of an image with and without that Cinegamma?
I have no interest in buying the camera, but just curious, maybe I could rent it for a project, but it would be nice to see some footage.

Joey Dee · July 23rd, 2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathieu Ghekiere

Can someone post some of this Cinegamma D footage?
Or even a comparison of an image with and without that Cinegamma?
I have no interest in buying the camera, but just curious, maybe I could rent it for a project, but it would be nice to see some footage.

I second that I'm very curious to see what you fellas cooked up with this cam... To be honest I've always considered this cam good but lately I am beging to be very impressed with what people are saying... So if u can post some footage, I've see Justyn Rowe's camera work and i must admit it does control lighting pretty good in an uncontrollable enviornment "on location"

Joey Dee

Mathieu Ghekiere · July 23rd, 2006, 10:34 PM

BTW Joey, I've seen one very very very good clip from the HVX, here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=68179

That must be the best footage I've seen from this camera so far...
But other clips would be nice too.

Ash Greyson · July 24th, 2006, 11:18 PM

I find that gamma D does look good but is pretty noisy in some cases. I prefer to warm the colors up a notch or two, push the phase a little toward green and lower the master pedestal. Remember, the shutter should only be adjusted for EFFECT, it cannot be fixed later. In film mode it should be 180, you can try other settings but you will be applying an irreversible effect, make sure you like it.

Some shows are going for this look not, Good Eats is one of them. They tried straight 24P but nobody liked it, now they are on like a /120th shutter. I still prefer (and most audiences would concur) 60i for to the camera stuff. The high shutter DOES look better for that app than straight 24p though...

ash =o)

Leonard Levy · July 25th, 2006, 05:13 PM

Robert,
I also prefer Cine D in most cases.
Did you drop the black level below the "0" that Pani starts with?
I am on vacation and not near my camera , but as I recall I dropped the black levels on all my gammas to -3 except for Cine D which needed to go down to -4 to get cap black down to "0" ire where it belongs. This helps with the apparent noise issue. I think the noise business re Cine D is just that you are seeing more shadow detail, so there is more noise there. You can eliminate that lower with Cine V but only by crushing shadow detail which I generally don't like.
(Maybe those black settings were -4 and -5, I can't recall. I did notice that in SD I needed to set my blacks a point or so lower than in HD and that those settings matched the DVX.)
Also it looked to me like cine gamma also required a slight tweek up in chroma and also detail level to make a picture that was roughly similar to the other gammas. Anyone else think Cine D was softer detailwise?
Once you did this though it was quite pleasing and had a much longer contrast range than any of the others- i.e. more filmike.
It seemed to me (limited testing I admit) that cinematrix was the same as normal matrix with the chroma setting up somewhere between +3 & +5. The other matrixes - flouro & enhanced really did seem like they emphazised different colors though.

July 21st, 2006, 08:36 AM	#1
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	HVX and the Film Look I'm currently in production on the biggest project I've ever done (more details when the website is updated) but just yesterday found the "magic touch" for getting really good looking film-like looks from the HVX. As I've always said, acheiving ANY look in-camera comes from good composition and lighting skills which of course we're using in the studio currently, but I also experimented with GAMMA settings that I previously had not. Yesterday we did a skin tone test with a model, GMB Color Checker and Kodak IT8 cards. After half an hour of playing with KNEE, PEDESTAL and a few other camera setups I tried the built-in "CINELIKE D" gamma setting - that did the trick! Shooting in 720p 24P(N) with the CINELIKE D gamma setting gives us the most film-like look - from a color/chroma perspective - than I've ever seen from any of the HD/HDV cameras - I'm just flat-out amazed. I must admit, that until yesterday I had snubbed my nose at built-in gamma settings in the HVX because of experiences with the XL2 "frame" mode and the Z1 CINEFRAME mode, niether of which looked good at all to me. But like I say, after we all looked at the A-B difference between HD NORM and CINELIKE D, it was plainly clear that Panasonic nailed it for a film-like output.

July 21st, 2006, 08:08 PM	#8
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	Guys, here's a tip from personal experience. Only use 25 or 24 shutter when in extreme low light situations. Why? Your image well get too soft and stuttery. In my experience, anything above 48 gives a good soilid image. __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

July 23rd, 2006, 01:13 PM	#11
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	Can someone post some of this Cinegamma D footage? Or even a comparison of an image with and without that Cinegamma? I have no interest in buying the camera, but just curious, maybe I could rent it for a project, but it would be nice to see some footage. __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

July 23rd, 2006, 10:34 PM	#13
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	BTW Joey, I've seen one very very very good clip from the HVX, here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=68179 That must be the best footage I've seen from this camera so far... But other clips would be nice too. __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

July 21st, 2006, 08:46 AM	#3
David Saraceno Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inland Northwest Posts: 490	Robert: To understand, all you did was access the setting for CINELIKE D gamma, and then used the cam without changing anything else?

July 21st, 2006, 10:35 AM	#6
Phil Hover Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Costa Mesa, The OC, CA Posts: 87	Several people including myself feel that setting the shutter to 200 in film cam mode instead of 180 gives the most filmic motion with the HVX.

July 21st, 2006, 07:05 PM	#7
Justyn Rowe Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 54	Phil... That is very interesting, I might have to try that. I have had interesting results at a 90 degree and also at the 350 degree. Thanks for the tip.

July 21st, 2006, 09:31 PM	#9
Phil Hover Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Costa Mesa, The OC, CA Posts: 87	Its all about a look and the HVX gives you a lot of options (120 to 1000 shutter for 60p looks great) Extremely high speed action - use a 1000 shutter and it really sharpens up the look compared to a 1/60 shutter. Plus, you can pull great stills. Without a lot of action or a still frame, 1/24 looks alright.

July 24th, 2006, 11:18 PM	#14
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	I find that gamma D does look good but is pretty noisy in some cases. I prefer to warm the colors up a notch or two, push the phase a little toward green and lower the master pedestal. Remember, the shutter should only be adjusted for EFFECT, it cannot be fixed later. In film mode it should be 180, you can try other settings but you will be applying an irreversible effect, make sure you like it. Some shows are going for this look not, Good Eats is one of them. They tried straight 24P but nobody liked it, now they are on like a /120th shutter. I still prefer (and most audiences would concur) 60i for to the camera stuff. The high shutter DOES look better for that app than straight 24p though... ash =o)

July 25th, 2006, 05:13 PM	#15
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Robert, I also prefer Cine D in most cases. Did you drop the black level below the "0" that Pani starts with? I am on vacation and not near my camera , but as I recall I dropped the black levels on all my gammas to -3 except for Cine D which needed to go down to -4 to get cap black down to "0" ire where it belongs. This helps with the apparent noise issue. I think the noise business re Cine D is just that you are seeing more shadow detail, so there is more noise there. You can eliminate that lower with Cine V but only by crushing shadow detail which I generally don't like. (Maybe those black settings were -4 and -5, I can't recall. I did notice that in SD I needed to set my blacks a point or so lower than in HD and that those settings matched the DVX.) Also it looked to me like cine gamma also required a slight tweek up in chroma and also detail level to make a picture that was roughly similar to the other gammas. Anyone else think Cine D was softer detailwise? Once you did this though it was quite pleasing and had a much longer contrast range than any of the others- i.e. more filmike. It seemed to me (limited testing I admit) that cinematrix was the same as normal matrix with the chroma setting up somewhere between +3 & +5. The other matrixes - flouro & enhanced really did seem like they emphazised different colors though.