Is ONE DAY learn and shoot possible? (hvx200)

Meryem Ersoz · June 6th, 2006, 07:27 AM

why is using this camera, for a single shot, so important to you? why not use a more out-of-the-box solution like a Z1 where it seems like far fewer things can go wrong?

it seems like a fun personal challenge, if your goal is to be personally challenged by a sweeping learning curve with a lot of difficult-to-control variables, but if your goal is simply to get a clean shot of a bike on a greenscreen, isn't there an easier workflow with less possibility for a breakdown?

even if you get this one shot successfully, are you going to have to get it to work with other footages at other frame rates, etc? have you considered the workflow for that?

Kevin Shaw · June 6th, 2006, 07:36 AM

If you're a fast learner you might be able to pull this off, but I really strongly recommend against it. My brother and I had an HVX200 for a day back in February, and we're still digesting what we learned from that almost four months later. This is a much more complex camera than anything most of us are used to working with, and it could take weeks just to get a good feel for all the different recording modes and what they can do for you. I tell people who are considering using the HVX200 to allow at least a full week of preparation before doing any critical shooting, and that's conservative.

Peter Jefferson · June 6th, 2006, 08:39 AM

in addition to all thats been said, many people blame the tools they use for the weaknesses which arise from using said tools.

Mike Schrengohst · June 6th, 2006, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thierry H. Fortier

Hi... I have no experience with camera except professional digital slr... I have a low budget shoot plan for next week and we will not be able to engage a cameraman.

Do you think its realist I can rent the HVX200 by morning, learn it with the manual from 9am to 5pm and shoot at 6-7pm?

in the deal is include;

HVX200
mattebox
tripod
60gig hd
2 p2 cards

Its for a bicycle on greenscreen setup... with slowmotion too.

I have a pc laptop (centrino 1.8ghz) for use dvrack... is dvcpro hd is easy to transfert?
if not we have some G5 at job...

or should I use dvrack for digitize HDV in realtime?

thanks
thierry

You are in Montreal?
There are many qualified HVX shooters located there.
You could probably hire one for 1/2 day cheaper
than renting the equipment.
Hire out especially if you have never shot greenscreen much less with the HVX. An HVX shooter can provide you clips on a DVD. My rec is to buy the HVX and learn how to use it before tackling a job like you described.

Mike Schrengohst · June 6th, 2006, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

why is using this camera, for a single shot, so important to you? why not use a more out-of-the-box solution like a Z1 where it seems like far fewer things can go wrong?

it seems like a fun personal challenge, if your goal is to be personally challenged by a sweeping learning curve with a lot of difficult-to-control variables, but if your goal is simply to get a clean shot of a bike on a greenscreen, isn't there an easier workflow with less possibility for a breakdown?

even if you get this one shot successfully, are you going to have to get it to work with other footages at other frame rates, etc? have you considered the workflow for that?

The Z1 (HDV) would be the worst camera for Greenscreen.

Thierry H. Fortier · June 6th, 2006, 02:10 PM

no choice anymore... I have to take the hvx200... on the good side, I will get the camera soonner for be able to test it and make the p2 workflow functionnal. Cause I think I have to plug the cam on the computer for be able to download the drivers...

I will get the cam tomorow at 2pm... I will shoot day after tomorow at 6pm...

If I can get a constant aperture in 1080i... I think we should be all right!

For the key, dont worry, its not my first and I will have 4 helper who work usually on post-production set...

We shoot a guy on a professional bicycle for the Tour De France Opening... It will be all silhouette... like the Ipod ads... a lot of backlights should cut the
guy very well.

Tonigh im constructing a rotating platform for make the guy turn when biking... should be lot of fun!

I did few key from the Z1 recently... I think it will be a good performer cause we downconvert the result to sd (edge was poor in HD)... but I hope getting better result from DVCproHD for be able to zoom in the image sometime keeping good quality. I didnt know the Z1 is more user friendly than the HVX200... and they dont have it at the renting shop...

anyway... I guess I will need more help with the cam tomorow!

thanks everybody!

ps: I reaaaaally love my job! ;P

Dean Sensui · June 6th, 2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thierry H. Fortier

If I can get a constant aperture in 1080i... I think we should be all right!

Tonigh im constructing a rotating platform for make the guy turn when biking... should be lot of fun!

anyway... I guess I will need more help with the cam tomorow!

thanks everybody!

ps: I reaaaaally love my job! ;P

Good luck with the shoot.

By the way, if you're making a turntable in hopes of getting a dramatic shot of the cyclist leaning into a turn while being stationary, it won't work. He has to actually be cutting into a turn to allow him to lean like that.

As the cyclist carves through a turn, centrifugal force is pushing his weight toward the outside of the curve. He shifts his weight toward the inside of the curve to maintain bike balance.

This is a simplified explanation. The cyclist is actually forcing himself away from a straight line. Inertia wants him to continue in one direction, the cyclist is using his tires to force his mass into a different direction, and there's also the technique of leaning the body further over while keeping the bike relatively upright to avoid "dishing out" if the road is wet. I did a lot of riding and even raced one year. Got fourth place after a 45-mile road race -- there was only six racers. One guy was 60 years old and the other guy had two flat tires.

So you'll probably have to tilt the camera and get the cyclist to position himeslf as though he's leaning into the curve.

Mike Schrengohst · June 6th, 2006, 08:16 PM

Take a look at this
http://www.imageshoppe.com/HVX_bluescreen2.html

Thierry H. Fortier · June 6th, 2006, 08:58 PM

hi dean, I understand inertia m..maybe!... I actually didnt plan emulating the cyclist turning a corner, but more emulating camera turning around him while going forward on the road... in CG we will replicate a fake France road background turning with him in the same time... the animation will not be so realistic cause we have only 1 weeks and half for deliver the final and lot of bumpers and transitions but the abstraction of all the elements should give us a nice piece of design for an opening. I was annoyed by the fact the bicycle stand is straight up then I will concentrate on close-up for get the look I want... all the far away shot will be done in 3D animation.

Hi Mike! yes... its that article we talked about few post ago... really convincing! thanks for post it! The worst is we have at job a HD digital deck for record but I just cant ask the techniciens to move it for the shoot... I know they will be piss off... and also we have a G5 with HD capture card but the guy who work on didnt did is back-up since long time then is 250gb of raid are pretty full...

then I feel I have to make my way with the P2 workflow... sad but it will be a constructive experience. Im sure I will rent that cam more in the future.

Thierry H. Fortier · June 6th, 2006, 10:12 PM

aaaargh... I installed p2 drivers for pc (without hardware plug n the pc), p2 viewer, premiere pro and aspect HD 4.1 tryout and I still cant get the mxf file to import in premiere... unsuported mode message...

???

Meryem Ersoz · June 7th, 2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schrengohst

The Z1 (HDV) would be the worst camera for Greenscreen.

maybe. but i always think of the best camera as the one which you know how to operate. a corollary: the best camera is the one you have ready when something interesting actually happens....

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=69027

someone should be following thierry around with a Z1 documenting his efforts! could be entertaining meta-cinema. "how i learned to stop worrying and love the hvx 200"

Thierry H. Fortier · June 7th, 2006, 08:04 AM

Lol..........

Jan Crittenden Livingston · June 7th, 2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thierry H. Fortier

aaaargh... I installed p2 drivers for pc (without hardware plug n the pc), p2 viewer, premiere pro and aspect HD 4.1 tryout and I still cant get the mxf file to import in premiere... unsuported mode message...

???

Theirry, Premier Pro does not support P2 which is why you are having a problem. You had said you were going to work in FCP but your FCP needs to be updated. These are not optional ideas. Either you have to work with the systems that work with it or choose a different camera. This is part of what I was alluding to in my prior post.

Best,

jan

Thierry H. Fortier · June 7th, 2006, 11:15 AM

Jan, you are right... I just catch this morning I have to convert the footage from p2 to cineform before do anything in premiere... I will have the camera in like 45min... so I will post my result soon.

for B solution, if cineform is not working, we will try to plug the component out of the cam directly to an HD VTR we have inhouse... and trim the footage after on a smoke or a flame...

hope it will work!

thanks!

Thierry H. Fortier · June 7th, 2006, 02:48 PM

ok...

1- im able to drag the content folder from the 60gb drive to the pc

2- opening HDlink (cineform software) I can select the videos file and convert them to cineform codec by pressing start. (its quite long)

3- Im able to open the resulting AVI file in premiere and after effects.

question: the resulting AVI is stretch horizontally by 75%... I guess this is due to the native capture and ratio of the HVX200. I make my comp in 1920x1080 and scale x by 150%. is it ok? (there is no 1.5 pixel ratio in After Effects 6.5... maybe in the 7)

but the overall workflow is quite slow on my poor laptop and I cant trim it too on that station... too much stutter on playback. should be better on my dual Xeon.

pfffffffff... what a relieve!

a 27sec file weight 265mb in the cineform codec.

ooops... their is heavy 32pulldown on the AVI file... I have to check that!

June 6th, 2006, 08:16 PM	#23
Mike Schrengohst Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 355	Take a look at this http://www.imageshoppe.com/HVX_bluescreen2.html __________________ Mike Schrengohst dvd.pro@verizon.net

June 7th, 2006, 02:48 PM	#30
Thierry H. Fortier Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 39	Its Working! ok... 1- im able to drag the content folder from the 60gb drive to the pc 2- opening HDlink (cineform software) I can select the videos file and convert them to cineform codec by pressing start. (its quite long) 3- Im able to open the resulting AVI file in premiere and after effects. question: the resulting AVI is stretch horizontally by 75%... I guess this is due to the native capture and ratio of the HVX200. I make my comp in 1920x1080 and scale x by 150%. is it ok? (there is no 1.5 pixel ratio in After Effects 6.5... maybe in the 7) but the overall workflow is quite slow on my poor laptop and I cant trim it too on that station... too much stutter on playback. should be better on my dual Xeon. pfffffffff... what a relieve! a 27sec file weight 265mb in the cineform codec. ooops... their is heavy 32pulldown on the AVI file... I have to check that!

June 6th, 2006, 07:27 AM	#16
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	why is using this camera, for a single shot, so important to you? why not use a more out-of-the-box solution like a Z1 where it seems like far fewer things can go wrong? it seems like a fun personal challenge, if your goal is to be personally challenged by a sweeping learning curve with a lot of difficult-to-control variables, but if your goal is simply to get a clean shot of a bike on a greenscreen, isn't there an easier workflow with less possibility for a breakdown? even if you get this one shot successfully, are you going to have to get it to work with other footages at other frame rates, etc? have you considered the workflow for that?

June 6th, 2006, 07:36 AM	#17
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	If you're a fast learner you might be able to pull this off, but I really strongly recommend against it. My brother and I had an HVX200 for a day back in February, and we're still digesting what we learned from that almost four months later. This is a much more complex camera than anything most of us are used to working with, and it could take weeks just to get a good feel for all the different recording modes and what they can do for you. I tell people who are considering using the HVX200 to allow at least a full week of preparation before doing any critical shooting, and that's conservative.

June 6th, 2006, 08:39 AM	#18
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	in addition to all thats been said, many people blame the tools they use for the weaknesses which arise from using said tools.

June 6th, 2006, 02:10 PM	#21
Thierry H. Fortier Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 39	no choice anymore... I have to take the hvx200... on the good side, I will get the camera soonner for be able to test it and make the p2 workflow functionnal. Cause I think I have to plug the cam on the computer for be able to download the drivers... I will get the cam tomorow at 2pm... I will shoot day after tomorow at 6pm... If I can get a constant aperture in 1080i... I think we should be all right! For the key, dont worry, its not my first and I will have 4 helper who work usually on post-production set... We shoot a guy on a professional bicycle for the Tour De France Opening... It will be all silhouette... like the Ipod ads... a lot of backlights should cut the guy very well. Tonigh im constructing a rotating platform for make the guy turn when biking... should be lot of fun! I did few key from the Z1 recently... I think it will be a good performer cause we downconvert the result to sd (edge was poor in HD)... but I hope getting better result from DVCproHD for be able to zoom in the image sometime keeping good quality. I didnt know the Z1 is more user friendly than the HVX200... and they dont have it at the renting shop... anyway... I guess I will need more help with the cam tomorow! thanks everybody! ps: I reaaaaally love my job! ;P

June 6th, 2006, 08:58 PM	#24
Thierry H. Fortier Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 39	hi dean, I understand inertia m..maybe!... I actually didnt plan emulating the cyclist turning a corner, but more emulating camera turning around him while going forward on the road... in CG we will replicate a fake France road background turning with him in the same time... the animation will not be so realistic cause we have only 1 weeks and half for deliver the final and lot of bumpers and transitions but the abstraction of all the elements should give us a nice piece of design for an opening. I was annoyed by the fact the bicycle stand is straight up then I will concentrate on close-up for get the look I want... all the far away shot will be done in 3D animation. Hi Mike! yes... its that article we talked about few post ago... really convincing! thanks for post it! The worst is we have at job a HD digital deck for record but I just cant ask the techniciens to move it for the shoot... I know they will be piss off... and also we have a G5 with HD capture card but the guy who work on didnt did is back-up since long time then is 250gb of raid are pretty full... then I feel I have to make my way with the P2 workflow... sad but it will be a constructive experience. Im sure I will rent that cam more in the future.

June 6th, 2006, 10:12 PM	#25
Thierry H. Fortier Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 39	aaaargh... I installed p2 drivers for pc (without hardware plug n the pc), p2 viewer, premiere pro and aspect HD 4.1 tryout and I still cant get the mxf file to import in premiere... unsuported mode message... ???

June 7th, 2006, 08:04 AM	#27
Thierry H. Fortier Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 39	Lol..........

June 7th, 2006, 11:15 AM	#29
Thierry H. Fortier Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 39	Jan, you are right... I just catch this morning I have to convert the footage from p2 to cineform before do anything in premiere... I will have the camera in like 45min... so I will post my result soon. for B solution, if cineform is not working, we will try to plug the component out of the cam directly to an HD VTR we have inhouse... and trim the footage after on a smoke or a flame... hope it will work! thanks!