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April 14th, 2006, 07:45 PM | #31 |
Barry Wan Kenobi
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And HDs are coming, with the FireStore and the CinePorter and the CitiDisk and others. There are ways around proprietary media. And it hasn't been all that proprietary anyway -- if Panasonic wanted to lock you into P2, they wouldn't have provided firewire streaming which lets you totally bypass P2.
Hard disks are what people are using. They're dirt cheap, reasonably fast (plenty fast in a RAID), easily accessible, and getting bigger, faster, and cheaper every week. Hard disks do have their drawbacks for acquisition, but for editing they're ideal. |
April 14th, 2006, 08:03 PM | #32 | |||
Obstreperous Rex
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You might think it needs to be visually searchable, but that's only because you don't know any other way to find a clip. A visual search is an incredible time waster (hence your desire for fast random access of the archive). Obviously though, the better solution in terms of a more efficient use of time is to simply enter some search terms... whether they're TC numbers, dates, names, addresses, project codes, GPS coordinates, slate numbers, whatever... and go directly to the clip(s) you need to pull from the archive. Clearly that's a smarter way to work than visual scanning. It's the same circumstances as well for using LTO as an immediate back-up to ingested material. The working copy is in the editing system, a bit-for-bit backup is nearby on LTO. If the NLE drives crash, then you'll need the entire contents of that tape anyway, so super fast random access is of no practical value there either. |
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April 14th, 2006, 11:57 PM | #33 | |
HDV Cinema
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So every few minutes, the P2 cards -- over a 10-12 hour day -- somewhere in the "African bush" -- have got to be copied and the P2 cards erased. The HD(s) might, or might not, be used ON the NLE. Frankly, I think they go into a vault and the NLE uses a copy of the logged portions. Any time they are need they are remounted. There is no need, to copy the contents again to tape! "All that's needed is an accurate, searchable index. Efficient archive retrieval isn't a question of random access speed; it's a question of effective data management techniques." Meta-data, shmeta-data. We all know that we what we "should do" but we almost never do it. I'd much rather plug some drives into SATA connector than count on meta data. "If the NLE drives crash, then you'll need the entire contents of that tape anyway, so super fast random access is of no practical value there either." Again you are assuming a very different model where you edit the intermedite storage. I'm assuming a much more time efficient model where there are only P2 and HD. Both are fast and both are random access. In other words, I'm trying to keep the positive P2 attributes from beginning to end -- while overcoming the one P2 negative -- cost. Believe it or not, I'm trying to see how to make P2 practical for long-form work, field work. Picture Panasonic's 60B drive field unit. But, picture it with a slot for a REV cartridge of say 300GB. OK -- backup data tape may be cheaper, but if CHEAP was your primary goal you likely would not go down the P2 path to start with. P2 implies you value fast and random. OK -- you might just want an HVX200 and really not care about P2. But, Panasonic is betting its future not on the folks who want an HVX, but on folks wanting P2. And, it's archiving -- not HVX200 image quality or features that is the focus of this thread.
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April 15th, 2006, 12:09 AM | #34 |
Obstreperous Rex
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Your model is *one* way to work. It's certainly not *the* way to work, and that's being generously diplomatic. The overriding point is that with this format it's all simply data in an IT stream from the moment of acquisition forward. And because of that, P2 adopters can choose from a variety of viable options for immediate backup and long-term storage purposes. To each his or her own.
I'm glad we can agree that archiving is the topic of this thread. |
April 15th, 2006, 12:19 AM | #35 | |
Obstreperous Rex
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April 15th, 2006, 03:28 PM | #36 | ||||||
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Just curious... How much real world experience do you have with this type of stuff? Or do you just take what's printed in these run-of-the-mill, IT publications as the gospel? If you want, I can reference articles that refute what you have quoted here. No point in it... I've been everything from a hardware designer, to a software developer, a CG artist and more over the last 20 years and have run two web companies and a large datacenter. The most important thing Iv'e learned is that there's no such thing as an "expert" in the IT business. And over the years, I've seen more of these "experts" and publications turn out to be wrong in their predictions or accounting than they are right. Quote:
Doing incremental or intelligently structured backups becomes a very laborous task without special software. But my point may have been lost in what I was saying. Essentially, I was getting at using a proper archiving solution rather than typical backup software. Most backup softwares package up your data into proprietary containers, requiring you to have that same company's software to restore the data. Bad idea for a long-term archival solution. Once again, I'm not preaching DLT or any tape format. I'm pointing it out as a viable option. Too many people here have discounted tape as something of the past, yet many of those same people were the most vocal about the HVX not being HDV because they want to have their backups already there on a tape. Pretty ironic, really.... Some of the tape naysayers are also the guys talking about doing their backups on BluRay or HD-DVD. Pretty silly to me... They're going to say that VXA2 tape is too expensive because you have to buy a $1K tape drive and $22 per 160GB tape. And then they say they're going to buy a $1K BluRay drive and $25 per 25GB disc media. OK, fine, we'll all probably buy BluRay drives so we can author HD content. But as an archival solution does it make sense? It's not even an available product yet and nothing is proven about its reliability or viability as a long-term format... I've never discounted HDD as a backup/archival solution. I would question some of the plans posted here for long-term archival on HDD, just from a logistical point of view of having to deal with hard drives and connectors/cabling, etc... if you ever need to pull significant amounts of data from your archive. At least the way most people here are talking about using them (disconnect once the drive is full and wrap it in a static bag and bubble wrap and shelve it). Hmmm... If I was going to archive on HDD, I'd set up SATA enclosures with a RAID-5 config. Unplug the RAID once it's full and shelve it with a dust cloth or bag over it and connect a new one. But then we have to refigure the cost... Now it's buying 3 to 5 drives at a time plus a decent enclosure for them. Just like anything else, you get what you pay for and it usually costs a bit more to do something right.
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April 15th, 2006, 03:36 PM | #37 | |
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April 15th, 2006, 11:51 PM | #38 | |
HDV Cinema
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-------- I once had a tape backup system in which the tape cassette was not much bigger than a large DVCPRO cassette. Now, if this is today's DLT that writes at 80MBs, and if a tape can be mounted as a logical volume on the desktop for near random access of files, then it could be used anywhere. Each P2 card would incrementally be copied to tape. When one got ready to edit -- one would copy the files to disk. Then the low-cost tape goes on a shelf. Perhaps, a portable tape drive with a P2 slot would work well in the bush.
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April 16th, 2006, 05:22 PM | #39 | |
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the thing to look for with p2 hdd acquistion is the trend towards bigger, cheaper hard drives... so you can always swap in a bigger, cheaper hdd, or get bigger, cheaper p2 cards, but with tape, the storage capacity limitations will never improve. |
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April 16th, 2006, 05:35 PM | #40 |
HDV Cinema
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What's missing is the integration you talk of that is needed.
Once a company puts the commodity drive in a package that includes a SATA interface, it won't be $40! And, if SATA isn't part of the package, then the disk package will too require the purchase of a "player" because the drivebay simply isn't part of the equation for many. There is a difference between putting "media" on a shelf and putting a drive+SATA INTERFACE on a shelf.
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April 18th, 2006, 05:28 PM | #41 |
HDV Cinema
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Follow this link for info on a SATA HD RAID solution:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/04/...age/index.html
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April 19th, 2006, 03:59 AM | #42 |
Inner Circle
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I was looking at the cost of DVCPro HD tape and SATA drives and came up with this comparison. Keep in mind that prices vary somewhat but this is a pretty good starting point:
DVCPro HD tapes 126 minutes: $80 = 64 cents/minute 64 minutes: $31 = 49 cents/minute $25,000+ for deck! Add backup costs. 250 GB drive: $120 = 48 cents/minute No deck needed. Quick random access Add backup costs. If you get the right SATA hot swap system, sleds for the bare drives are about $20 each. Not bad.
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April 19th, 2006, 06:56 PM | #43 |
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Yikes. You say tomayto and I say tomahto. <g>
That said, (both ways!)... I have to come down on the side of the Death-to-Tape fanatics. We used DLT for a short while, around 8 years ago, on a PBS educational series. The read/write speed was abysmal, even by the standards of the day. The one time we needed a recovery, the tape fell apart. Your mileage may vary. Overlooked in most of this holy war is this basic fact: Archiving? Pshaw! ~~Anything~~ we archive on is going to be largely obsolete in 5 years. That's hardly an "archival" time frame. It's stopgap. It seems to me that one of the most important considerations is going competely overlooked: the speed at which 5 years of archived material will be able to be cloned over to the current available media storage solution in 2011. I know this from my painstaking experience of transferring a zillion 100MB Zip drives to DVD-R using a USB Zip drive. How many of us have put off dubbing old <insert here: Hi-8, Beta SP, 3/4", whatever> tapes because the real-time dubbing process was just too awful to consider? (Author's note: my hand is raised. I still have ~~standard 8mm movies~~ to transfer!) Fast and high capacity, good. Slow and cumbersome, bad. SATA-II drives do it for me. They're as fast as anything out there, somewhat reasonably priced, and might even have a little extra lifespan eked out by putting them in a different, future enclosure when eSATA becomes obsolete. The drives' read/write speed might be slow by 2011's standards, but at least you'd still be able to hook them up to your computer with minimal investment. And I'll take a "slow in 2011" 3Gb/sec transfer speed over DLT any day. Especially since the DLT's oxide will be flaking like lead paint in a tenement by the time you get around to copying it to newer media. |
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