DvcProHD or Dvc50 for Shoot? at DVinfo.net

Jason Cunningham · March 15th, 2006, 08:55 AM

Using a rented Hvx, we are shooting a single scene from a feature film script I'm shooting in the fall. We're probably shooting the movie on a Varicam but we can't afford to rent it for just this "demo" scene. Basically, this is to give our investors a feel for how I'm going to direct the flick. The scene will be viewed from a DVD source so I'm wondering if shooting DvcPro50 would be better than shooting in HD mode since it's being viewed on DVD. Would shooting in HD mode offer any distinct advantages? How about DvcPro50?

Thanks!

Peter Jefferson · March 15th, 2006, 09:27 AM

having a master at the highest posible quality is the best way to go, especialy for archival purposes and who knows, maybe u can add that to the features DVD as a special feature when ur movie gets released..

in the end though, having the hihgest quality master would give u the headroom to do anything u want with it.

David Saraceno · March 15th, 2006, 11:05 AM

That is an interesting questions.

Our 720pn footage looks fabulous when taken to DVD.

However, I had believed that DVCPro50 has a better chroma sampling that DVCPro100. Could be wrong on this.

Jason Cunningham · March 15th, 2006, 11:54 AM

David, are you saying there was less chromatic noise or did you see more detail? In what way did you feel the DvcPro50 had better sampling? I take it you mean the saturation had less distortion/artifacts. Would that be accurate?

Jethro Senger · March 15th, 2006, 01:32 PM

Always shoot the highest quality acquisition format possible for the project. It's like saying 'we don't want to shoot 35mm since we are ending up on DVD anyway'. The statement of not shooting HD because you are ending up on NTSC doesn't make sense, especially if you are making a feature film. You want it to be impressive and sell your project, so make it the best it can be.

You will probably see that you will be able to shoot your film on the HVX anyway, and forget the full size Varicam, unless you are trying to impress the crew and/or investors with a big camera. Get the experience shooting HD now if you are going to be shooting the film in HD.

Jason Cunningham · March 15th, 2006, 03:31 PM

Call me crazy but I heard someone on here (Barry Green maybe) mention something about dvcpo50 outperforming dvcprohd when downrezzed. I'm not a D.P. (I'm a director who hires D.P.s) so I can't imagine why that would be. David already mentioned the dvcpro50 having one advantage from his own tests. I'm curious to hear from others who've conducted similar tests.

Don Donatello · March 15th, 2006, 03:32 PM

i believe the 720p files are the same size as the dvcpro 50 files ..so that could be reason that DVCpro 50 outperforms dvcpro 720p when 720 is down rezed??

http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/ click on 4:2:2C

David Heath · March 15th, 2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Saraceno

However, I had believed that DVCPro50 has a better chroma sampling that DVCPro100. Could be wrong on this.

I don't see how that could be - both are 4:2:2, and in the case of DVCPRO HD the recorded colour matix is 480x720, for DVCPRO 50 it's 360x480.

HD *IS* 16:9 - does NTSC SD on the HVX give a 16:9 option?

Barry Green · March 15th, 2006, 06:44 PM

Yes SD on the HVX is 16:9 or 4:3, your choice.

If I were shooting for DVD release, I'd shoot DVCPRO50. Same res as the DVD, and much milder compression than HD. The best-looking standard-def is gonna come from shooting DV50.

If you have other plans for your footage, originating in high-def makes sense. But if it's only for DVD, I'd say just shoot DV50 in the first place.

Ashley Cooper · March 16th, 2006, 03:46 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shooting in DVC Pro 50 means no variable frame rates, right? That would be a big selling point to me, but if the shoot doesn't call for it then maybe it doesn't matter.

Vincent Rozenberg · March 16th, 2006, 04:04 AM

@ Ashley: No, DVCPro 50 stands for the compression rate, twice as 'better' as DV which is 25mb per sec. But the HVX does do variable framerates for slomos in HD.

Barry Green · March 16th, 2006, 04:25 AM

Choosing DVCPRO50 would limit your frame rates to either 24p, 30p or 60i, that's true. You could swap over to HD and shoot the variable frame rate stuff in 720p and downrez... but if you're going to do that, why not shoot the whole thing in 720p and downrez it all, because that way you'd have an HD source to go from...

Good point. If your project needs variable frame rates, probably best to shoot in 720. If you're not going to use the variable frame rates, and it's for DVD only, I'd use DV50.

Steven White · March 16th, 2006, 10:00 AM

Wouldn't shooting 1080P and down-sampling produce superior results to DVCPRO50? A proper down-convert should yeild nearly 4:4:4 SD. Not that it matters when you're compressing to 4:2:0 DVD - but still... better out of principle.

-Steve

Barry Green · March 16th, 2006, 04:42 PM

If that was the only thing at work, maybe. But consider that DV50 is much less compressed to begin with -- 3.3:1 vs. HD's 6.7:1.

Downconverting in-camera to the DV videotape doesn't hold a candle to shooting DV50 in the first place.

Downconverting in post yields results that are very comparable -- so why bother? Doesn't make for any better-looking final product, yet it's a lot more work.

Well, to each his own, you won't really lose anything by going either way, but if you choose to shoot HD you'll have an HD master if you ever need it.

March 15th, 2006, 08:55 AM	#1
Jason Cunningham New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	DvcProHD or Dvc50 for Shoot? Using a rented Hvx, we are shooting a single scene from a feature film script I'm shooting in the fall. We're probably shooting the movie on a Varicam but we can't afford to rent it for just this "demo" scene. Basically, this is to give our investors a feel for how I'm going to direct the flick. The scene will be viewed from a DVD source so I'm wondering if shooting DvcPro50 would be better than shooting in HD mode since it's being viewed on DVD. Would shooting in HD mode offer any distinct advantages? How about DvcPro50? Thanks!

March 15th, 2006, 01:32 PM	#5
Jethro Senger New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Orlando Posts: 6	Shoot HD Always shoot the highest quality acquisition format possible for the project. It's like saying 'we don't want to shoot 35mm since we are ending up on DVD anyway'. The statement of not shooting HD because you are ending up on NTSC doesn't make sense, especially if you are making a feature film. You want it to be impressive and sell your project, so make it the best it can be. You will probably see that you will be able to shoot your film on the HVX anyway, and forget the full size Varicam, unless you are trying to impress the crew and/or investors with a big camera. Get the experience shooting HD now if you are going to be shooting the film in HD.

March 16th, 2006, 04:04 AM	#11
Vincent Rozenberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands Posts: 475	@ Ashley: No, DVCPro 50 stands for the compression rate, twice as 'better' as DV which is 25mb per sec. But the HVX does do variable framerates for slomos in HD. Last edited by Vincent Rozenberg; March 16th, 2006 at 04:46 AM.

March 15th, 2006, 09:27 AM	#2
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	having a master at the highest posible quality is the best way to go, especialy for archival purposes and who knows, maybe u can add that to the features DVD as a special feature when ur movie gets released.. in the end though, having the hihgest quality master would give u the headroom to do anything u want with it.

March 15th, 2006, 11:05 AM	#3
David Saraceno Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inland Northwest Posts: 490	That is an interesting questions. Our 720pn footage looks fabulous when taken to DVD. However, I had believed that DVCPro50 has a better chroma sampling that DVCPro100. Could be wrong on this.

March 15th, 2006, 11:54 AM	#4
Jason Cunningham New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	David, are you saying there was less chromatic noise or did you see more detail? In what way did you feel the DvcPro50 had better sampling? I take it you mean the saturation had less distortion/artifacts. Would that be accurate?

March 15th, 2006, 03:31 PM	#6
Jason Cunningham New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	Call me crazy but I heard someone on here (Barry Green maybe) mention something about dvcpo50 outperforming dvcprohd when downrezzed. I'm not a D.P. (I'm a director who hires D.P.s) so I can't imagine why that would be. David already mentioned the dvcpro50 having one advantage from his own tests. I'm curious to hear from others who've conducted similar tests.

March 15th, 2006, 03:32 PM	#7
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	i believe the 720p files are the same size as the dvcpro 50 files ..so that could be reason that DVCpro 50 outperforms dvcpro 720p when 720 is down rezed?? http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/ click on 4:2:2C

March 15th, 2006, 06:44 PM	#9
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Yes SD on the HVX is 16:9 or 4:3, your choice. If I were shooting for DVD release, I'd shoot DVCPRO50. Same res as the DVD, and much milder compression than HD. The best-looking standard-def is gonna come from shooting DV50. If you have other plans for your footage, originating in high-def makes sense. But if it's only for DVD, I'd say just shoot DV50 in the first place.

March 16th, 2006, 03:46 AM	#10
Ashley Cooper Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 85	Correct me if I'm wrong, but shooting in DVC Pro 50 means no variable frame rates, right? That would be a big selling point to me, but if the shoot doesn't call for it then maybe it doesn't matter.

March 16th, 2006, 04:25 AM	#12
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Choosing DVCPRO50 would limit your frame rates to either 24p, 30p or 60i, that's true. You could swap over to HD and shoot the variable frame rate stuff in 720p and downrez... but if you're going to do that, why not shoot the whole thing in 720p and downrez it all, because that way you'd have an HD source to go from... Good point. If your project needs variable frame rates, probably best to shoot in 720. If you're not going to use the variable frame rates, and it's for DVD only, I'd use DV50.

March 16th, 2006, 10:00 AM	#13
Steven White Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 547	Wouldn't shooting 1080P and down-sampling produce superior results to DVCPRO50? A proper down-convert should yeild nearly 4:4:4 SD. Not that it matters when you're compressing to 4:2:0 DVD - but still... better out of principle. -Steve

March 16th, 2006, 04:42 PM	#14
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	If that was the only thing at work, maybe. But consider that DV50 is much less compressed to begin with -- 3.3:1 vs. HD's 6.7:1. Downconverting in-camera to the DV videotape doesn't hold a candle to shooting DV50 in the first place. Downconverting in post yields results that are very comparable -- so why bother? Doesn't make for any better-looking final product, yet it's a lot more work. Well, to each his own, you won't really lose anything by going either way, but if you choose to shoot HD you'll have an HD master if you ever need it.