Noise issues HVX at DVinfo.net

Raymond Toussaint · March 2nd, 2006, 08:29 PM

More respected filmmakers using the HVX today report noise issues, the present and handling of noise in the video. I read about specific noise in the grey areas, the mid, and with high contrast lighting and flat backgrounds. It is not equal distributed, but visible in grey and black areas. They tried all different setups and lighting, but could not get rid off it.

The best results are in full daylight but even in well lit studio´s the noise is there. What is your opinion, and what could be the reason for the noise? Is it like the DVX? Can you live with it? (the colors are pretty nice)

Jay said:
"This is a different kind of noise. Perhaps gradient mid areas are harder for this camera to capture. There is no noise in the fully exposed and fully underexposed (black) areas. It's just in between (closer to dark than white).

Robert Lane · March 2nd, 2006, 11:29 PM

Ray,

I think if you read the threads on this forum and more importantly, download the bevy of clips shot with the HVX that people are sharing (gosh, you can find guys shooting up soda cans, of all things!) you'd see that any noise "issues" aren't issues at all.

No camera is perfect, and every camera produced has it's weak points. Noise, is not one of them for the HVX.

This forum - this HVX forum specifically - has had it's share of "measurebator"-type threads. Let's not start another; it serves no useful purpose.

Raymond Toussaint · March 3rd, 2006, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

Ray,

I think if you read the threads on this forum and more importantly, download the bevy of clips shot with the HVX that people are sharing (gosh, you can find guys shooting up soda cans, of all things!) you'd see that any noise "issues" aren't issues at all.

No camera is perfect, and every camera produced has it's weak points. Noise, is not one of them for the HVX.

This forum - this HVX forum specifically - has had it's share of "measurebator"-type threads. Let's not start another; it serves no useful purpose.

"Noise, is not one of them for the HVX."

Well, Rob,
I AM downloading clips and shots but I also read from HVX owners that they see more noise that expected. Perhaps you like to see it yourself at http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=48201

This thread here is trying to bring the ´noise´experience from DVI users at one point, instead of reading it all over the place. You find some examples in the Graveyard And Beach Footage post.

I think its completely legitimate to do so, and it is intended to give me (us) enough information to base disciscions on. No other meaning, and it serves a purpose. People are dealing with the noise, maybe you can share your HVX settings how to handle it?

Robert Lane · March 3rd, 2006, 07:08 AM

We did extensive color and output testing between all the current HDV/HD bodies in a side-by-side comparison: HD100, Z1, H1, HVX. None of those bodies exhibited any noise "issues" per se.

Initially the HVX was thought to be a good low light body because of it's low LUX rating at least when compared to its competition however, our testing shows that like its brethren when the light falls off and you're forced to push gain up noise becomes clearly evident. We saw this on all the bodies, not just the HVX.

No sub-$10k body performs well in low light and in my experience no vid-cam does - until you start looking at things like a CineAlta or Viper. But we don't own either of those (and don't plan to) so whenever we have a project that requires a lot of low light work we shoot film.

So far, digi-vid-cam bodies have the same Achilles heel as DSLR's - low light. Push ISO or use long shuttter speeds and you get noise. But there are times when "noise" can be your friend, such as creating a film-like feel.

In short, we don't consider noise characteristics from the HVX to be any different or any more of a concern than any other body currently on the market, hence we don't make any special settings or plans around it.

One last thing: Noise often looks worse on the LCD or EVF; there were times for example when we pushed the Z1 to it's limits and the noise on the LCD was nasty. But, once we imported the footage into FCP and looked at it both on the main edit monitor and out to an NTSC monitor it didn't look nearly as bad.

As I say, every camera has it's weaknesses and none of the bodies mentioned above could be considered to have noise "issues", they all perform extremely well for their intended purpose.

And, each camera has it's own "signature" output when compared to one another; if you find the color, noise or resolution output from the HVX not to your liking you have at least 3 other bodies with distinctly different outputs that might have a look and feel better suited to you.

Leonard Levy · March 3rd, 2006, 12:18 PM

Did you find that long shutter speeds led to an increase in noise?
That would surprise me.
Why?
i've always used slower shutter (1/30 or 1/24th) as a way to increase speed when shooting the DVX (esp @ 24P). Seemed like it would also work in HVX.

Raymond Toussaint · March 3rd, 2006, 12:20 PM

It is always good idea to test before you buy, and to see the image with your own eyes. As you noticed, some reports arrived at dvxuser.com expressing the opinions from not only testers but buyers -real life users- with the HVX200
concerning noise. Without using any gain, and shooting in well lit circumstances and settings.

To make the relation with DSLR´s low light behavior is understandable, but calling a HVX a "bodie" like you do is somewhat strange, it is a fixed lens camera to use with P2 cards. I read the 4 cam comp. test, mainly a resolution test, and all the thoughts about resolution and 1/3" sensors and behavior, now the results arrive in noise. The Sony is almost noisefree.

Chris Hurd · March 3rd, 2006, 02:56 PM

Hi Raymond,

We're already aware of dvxuser.com, but thanks anyway.

As Robert Lane points out above, we're really not into "measurebating" in this forum. That's something which is best done in private. If you own the HVX200 or are thinking about buying one, and if there are any specific questions that you'd like to ask us, please go right ahead. Otherwise we really don't need to hear about what's happening on another site that most of us already belong to and visit every day.

If your goal was to draw attention to DVX User, that's fine. However I think Robert Lane has done an excellent job of responding to the technical issue raised in this thread. And pointing people to DVX User is about as useful as pointing out that the sky is blue. We're already aware. It's a huge site, one of the biggest and best in the world, and most of us (myself included) are big fans of that site and really like it a lot.

Meanwhile we're trying to do our own thing here, and I don't think there's anything further that can be gained from this point, except maybe to list the address for DVX User in case anybody missed it the first two times: www.dvxuser.com

This topic is finished -- if anybody who actually *owns* an HVX200 has any *real* questions about noise or any other issues that they're *experiencing* as opposed to reading about elsewhere on the web, then please feel free to start a new thread.

March 2nd, 2006, 08:29 PM	#1
Raymond Toussaint Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 173	Noise issues HVX More respected filmmakers using the HVX today report noise issues, the present and handling of noise in the video. I read about specific noise in the grey areas, the mid, and with high contrast lighting and flat backgrounds. It is not equal distributed, but visible in grey and black areas. They tried all different setups and lighting, but could not get rid off it. The best results are in full daylight but even in well lit studio´s the noise is there. What is your opinion, and what could be the reason for the noise? Is it like the DVX? Can you live with it? (the colors are pretty nice) Jay said: "This is a different kind of noise. Perhaps gradient mid areas are harder for this camera to capture. There is no noise in the fully exposed and fully underexposed (black) areas. It's just in between (closer to dark than white).

March 3rd, 2006, 02:56 PM	#7
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Hi Raymond, We're already aware of dvxuser.com, but thanks anyway. As Robert Lane points out above, we're really not into "measurebating" in this forum. That's something which is best done in private. If you own the HVX200 or are thinking about buying one, and if there are any specific questions that you'd like to ask us, please go right ahead. Otherwise we really don't need to hear about what's happening on another site that most of us already belong to and visit every day. If your goal was to draw attention to DVX User, that's fine. However I think Robert Lane has done an excellent job of responding to the technical issue raised in this thread. And pointing people to DVX User is about as useful as pointing out that the sky is blue. We're already aware. It's a huge site, one of the biggest and best in the world, and most of us (myself included) are big fans of that site and really like it a lot. Meanwhile we're trying to do our own thing here, and I don't think there's anything further that can be gained from this point, except maybe to list the address for DVX User in case anybody missed it the first two times: www.dvxuser.com This topic is finished -- if anybody who actually owns an HVX200 has any real questions about noise or any other issues that they're experiencing as opposed to reading about elsewhere on the web, then please feel free to start a new thread. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 2nd, 2006, 11:29 PM	#2
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	Ray, I think if you read the threads on this forum and more importantly, download the bevy of clips shot with the HVX that people are sharing (gosh, you can find guys shooting up soda cans, of all things!) you'd see that any noise "issues" aren't issues at all. No camera is perfect, and every camera produced has it's weak points. Noise, is not one of them for the HVX. This forum - this HVX forum specifically - has had it's share of "measurebator"-type threads. Let's not start another; it serves no useful purpose.

March 3rd, 2006, 07:08 AM	#4
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,823 Images: 15	We did extensive color and output testing between all the current HDV/HD bodies in a side-by-side comparison: HD100, Z1, H1, HVX. None of those bodies exhibited any noise "issues" per se. Initially the HVX was thought to be a good low light body because of it's low LUX rating at least when compared to its competition however, our testing shows that like its brethren when the light falls off and you're forced to push gain up noise becomes clearly evident. We saw this on all the bodies, not just the HVX. No sub-$10k body performs well in low light and in my experience no vid-cam does - until you start looking at things like a CineAlta or Viper. But we don't own either of those (and don't plan to) so whenever we have a project that requires a lot of low light work we shoot film. So far, digi-vid-cam bodies have the same Achilles heel as DSLR's - low light. Push ISO or use long shuttter speeds and you get noise. But there are times when "noise" can be your friend, such as creating a film-like feel. In short, we don't consider noise characteristics from the HVX to be any different or any more of a concern than any other body currently on the market, hence we don't make any special settings or plans around it. One last thing: Noise often looks worse on the LCD or EVF; there were times for example when we pushed the Z1 to it's limits and the noise on the LCD was nasty. But, once we imported the footage into FCP and looked at it both on the main edit monitor and out to an NTSC monitor it didn't look nearly as bad. As I say, every camera has it's weaknesses and none of the bodies mentioned above could be considered to have noise "issues", they all perform extremely well for their intended purpose. And, each camera has it's own "signature" output when compared to one another; if you find the color, noise or resolution output from the HVX not to your liking you have at least 3 other bodies with distinctly different outputs that might have a look and feel better suited to you.

March 3rd, 2006, 12:18 PM	#5
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Did you find that long shutter speeds led to an increase in noise? That would surprise me. Why? i've always used slower shutter (1/30 or 1/24th) as a way to increase speed when shooting the DVX (esp @ 24P). Seemed like it would also work in HVX.

March 3rd, 2006, 12:20 PM	#6
Raymond Toussaint Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 173	It is always good idea to test before you buy, and to see the image with your own eyes. As you noticed, some reports arrived at dvxuser.com expressing the opinions from not only testers but buyers -real life users- with the HVX200 concerning noise. Without using any gain, and shooting in well lit circumstances and settings. To make the relation with DSLR´s low light behavior is understandable, but calling a HVX a "bodie" like you do is somewhat strange, it is a fixed lens camera to use with P2 cards. I read the 4 cam comp. test, mainly a resolution test, and all the thoughts about resolution and 1/3" sensors and behavior, now the results arrive in noise. The Sony is almost noisefree.