Panasonic HDV?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Mark Grant

$2 tapes vs $2000 P2 cards?

Bad comparison... P2 doesn't work like tape. DV tape is used by most people as a shoot and archive solution. You shoot to tape, you capture your footage, you have an archival master that can be stored... On to the next tape.

P2 is a transport medium, just like a memory card in a digital still camera. It's true that P2 cards are a tough nut to swallow for many people, but for a good many others it will actually save money over time. I fall into that latter group. By the end of this next week, I will have 2x4GB cards and 2x8GB cards with a total of $4400 invested in P2. On its own, that is 74 minutes of 720p DVCPROHD recording before I have to dump any of those cards. My workflow is already based on large RAIDs and a fiber SAN complete with a tape archival system. For me to jump in with the P2 cards does cost up front, but considering my current DV tape usage on my DVX units factored with DVM63MQ tapes that no longer need to buy, the lack of tape will pay for those P2 cards in about 14 months. In the end it's not going to save me more than a few $$, but the convenience factor alone and not having to capture all my footage at painfully slow real-time, is going to be huge.

Also, frankly, I'm not convinced that DVCPRO HD is a particularly good codec: certainly if I convert HDV to DVCPRO HD and then back to 25Mbps MPEG-2 the final output is noticeably worse than the original footage. If I do the same with Avid's DNxHD codec there's no significant difference: admittedly, though, it is 185Mbps rather than 100Mbps.

Why you would want to convert HDV to anything other than DNxHD or a lossless format is beyond me. Converting to DVCPROHD and back is going to kill your footage, it's the way the two different codecs work and you're just asking for trouble.

DVCPRO is a very good codec in itself, you just have to know how to work with it. Considering how long it has been available and how many networks/broadcasters incorporate it into their workflow, it can't be all that bad. :) I still have to wait for my P2 cards to show up in the next few days before I can really get my hands on experience. Of the raw MXF files and native clips for this camera that I have assembled, the footage is great and is showing to be greatly superior for compositing and colorkeying. I primarily do animation and combine with live elements... This camera (for me) makes a lot more sense than a long GOP MPEG2 (HDV) solution.

To each their own... But I think a lot of people are more scared of P2 than they should be and a lot of people just don't understand how a proper P2 workflow should be implemented. I also think there's a lot of DVX users out there trying to buy the HVX200 and in reality, the HVX is just not a good fit for their level of production. You should seriously have a comprehensive backup strategy and large-volume data system at least in the planning and budgeting stages before considering the HVX200. IMO, people buying it on a whim and planning to just back up P2 cards to DVD-R on the fly might want to rethink what it is they're trying to accomplish.

[Heath McKnight]

I base everything on what I see--25 mbps Sony looks GREAT, and I'll tell you what I think of 100 mbps Panasonic in about a week.

heath

[Robert M Wright]

Originally Posted by Albert Rudnicki

What about a hard drive with an hdv codec and SDI in.
That could be a cost effective solution?

Albert Rudnicki

Essentially, you can get the same result by connecting an HDV camcorder to a laptop with DV Rack, via firewire. That really is low cost.

[Heath McKnight]

Actually, best way is to buy a Miranda and a RAID and do it that way, skip the HDV codec and go straight HD. Component for the Z1, HD/SD SDI for the H1.

heath

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

However, it doesn't handle intense motion as well and all the color and whatnot claims aside, HDV is currently limited to 1080i60 and 720p30. It doesn't have the elegance of the DVCPRO implementation on the HVX that allows 720p24n or full 720p60, etc..

There are several problems with these statements. First, 24n is no different than 24p. Read the HVX200 manual for more.

Second, HDV can be 720p60, all that's required is a low-power 60Hz MPEG-2 encoder. (A 60Hz encoder must run 2X faster than and gets very hot because it consumes sooo much power.) The JVC cameras can record 60p.

Big problem with the myth about motion. LONG GOP at 25Mbps doesn't handle motion well. That's Sony and Canon. SHORT GOP (JVC) handles motion perfectly.

Moreover, 720/24p HDV uses about 25% LESS compression than 24p DVCPRO HD. Talking about compression and motion is not a wise marketing move by Panasonic because the message is valid only against Sony and Canon. (And, is something Canon buyers need to take seriously.)

This is why Sony has XDCAM HD at 35Mbps.

[Robert M Wright]

Steve -

Have you looked at the difference in compression/quality performance between 720/24p and 720/30p on the JVCs?

It's been a little question in the back of my mind for a while now; would going to 24p get any noticeable (even minor) quality improvement, since you would actually have a higher bitrate per frame? (I sure haven't tested, nor would I be able to at this point, with only an HD10U.)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

There are several problems with these statements. First, 24n is no different than 24p. Read the HVX200 manual for more.

Yes, I know that 24pn is the same as 24p. What I was getting at (and I know I didn't make it clear) is that the HVX records 24p within a native 24fps stream, that way only using up the bandwidth needed for the 24 frames/sec instead of forcing the the user to take their 24p over 30p. Not that it really makes a valid argument of any sort - Canon rcords null frame markers for 24F mode so even though the NLE must pull down the 24p footage, there is no extra (other than a few bytes) stored on the tape for the discard frames. It's a convenience issue or an issue of having options because 24p is there if you want it native, or over 30p or over 60p. None of the other cameras in this price range offer that right now.

Second, HDV can be 720p60, all that's required is a low-power 60Hz MPEG-2 encoder. (A 60Hz encoder must run 2X faster than and gets very hot because it consumes sooo much power.) The JVC cameras can record 60p.

Or should we say that HDV *COULD* be 720p60. However, it is not... 720p60 is currently not a standard format within the HDV spec (unless that's been revised into the spec within the last few months). Other than the HVX200, the only other currently available 60p capable camcorder in the sub $10K price range (that I'm aware of) is the JVC HD100, but it doesn't shoot 720p60, only 480p60.

Big problem with the myth about motion. LONG GOP at 25Mbps doesn't handle motion well. That's Sony and Canon. SHORT GOP (JVC) handles motion perfectly.

Not to pick nits, but I did make my motion comment in relation to long GOP HDV.

Moreover, 720/24p HDV uses about 25% LESS compression than 24p DVCPRO HD. Talking about compression and motion is not a wise marketing move by Panasonic because the message is valid only against Sony and Canon. (And, is something Canon buyers need to take seriously.)

And judging by Panasonics marketing tactics, I would think their primary focus is competing with Sony. As it should be... Sony is selling HDV camcorders like crazy. I have an HVR-A1 myself -- sweet little unit. And combined with the Ikelite underwater housing, it's a powerful tool. With current pricing and rebates you could pick up an A1, underwater housing, UV filter and wide angle lens for about $3K.

This is why Sony has XDCAM HD at 35Mbps.

Yep.

[Robert M Wright]

I believe Jeff is quite correct that 720/60p is not a format that is part of the HDV spec. Neither is 720/24p nor 1080/60p either. The HDV spec contains a subset of ATSC formats, essentially.

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

For me to jump in with the P2 cards does cost up front, but considering my current DV tape usage on my DVX units factored with DVM63MQ tapes that no longer need to buy, the lack of tape will pay for those P2 cards in about 14 months.

I'll be interested to hear if you still feel that way 14 months from now, after you've had some experience transferring and backing up hundreds of gigabytes of master data onto various forms of storage costing more per hour of video than a typical miniDV tape. Also, have you timed how long it takes just to do the initial copy of your P2 files to some other storage media? I copied some P2 data to my laptop tonight and it took almost four minutes for four minutes of video, or nearly as long as it would take to capture from an HDV tape. Of course that's dependent on your transfer setup, but it looks to me like moving P2 data around may be at least as time consuming as working from tape -- depending on how you do it and how organized you are. For small amounts of video this may not be a problem, but for those of us who shoot a lot of footage I'm not seeing the P2 format offering a significant workflow advantage.

I'm more impressed with the HVX200 now that I've had a chance to test-drive one, but for me the workflow isn't looking very promising yet. In a few years when solid-state memory is bigger and cheaper than it is today and we have more options for recording HD in highly compressed formats, then something like the HVX200 may make more sense. For those who can make it work for them today, enjoy having so many recording options and the other nice features this camera has to offer.

[Robert M Wright]

There's pretty much no way that you can get much faster than real-time for copying 100mbps material to a single, mainstream hard drive (7200rpm). That's in the realm of the limits of the drive's sustained thruput speed.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

Or should we say that HDV *COULD* be 720p60. However, it is not... 720p60 is currently not a standard format within the HDV spec (unless that's been revised into the spec within the last few months).

Quote from the original July 4, 2003 JVC Press Release:

"The HDV format complies with both the 720 scanning lines (progressive)/1280 horizontal pixels 720p format (60p, 30p, 50p, 25p), and the 1080 scanning lines (interlace)/1440 horizontal pixels 1080i format (60i, 50i). This ensures the recording and playback of high-resolution video for the high-definition era."

[Robert M Wright]

I just plugged "hdv specification" into Google quick, and it appears 720/60p is one of the formats in the spec. I'm not sure exactly why I thought 30fps was the highest 720p framerate in the HDV spec, but it was something I thought I "knew."

"It's not what you don't know that hurts you. It's what you do know that ain't so."

[Mark Grant]

My workflow is already based on large RAIDs and a fiber SAN complete with a tape archival system.

Good for you. Most people using a $6k Handycam won't have that kind of system set up, and $2 DV tapes are a much cheaper alternative.

Why you would want to convert HDV to anything other than DNxHD or a lossless format is beyond me.

Uh, to see whether it's any good at compressing HD images. If it can't sustain the image quality of HDV across one generation of compression, then IMHO it's not a terribly good HD codec.

But I think a lot of people are more scared of P2 than they should be

I think most people just see it as a huge step backwards from the convenience of being able to shoot an hour of footage onto a $2 tape which is its own backup. Just look at how much _extra_ hardware you need in order to make P2 workable.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Robert M Wright

There's pretty much no way that you can get much faster than real-time for copying 100mbps material to a single, mainstream hard drive (7200rpm). That's in the realm of the limits of the drive's sustained thruput speed.

Yeah, which means that those with single-drive workstations and most notebook computers are stuck in the real-time doldrums. ...Many notebooks won't even handle the 12.5MB/sec (100Mbps) needed for real-time.

I can ingest on my edit system at a sustained 3.7GB/sec... So I'm limited by the speedof the Cardbus PCMCIA and P2 interfaces. ...Gotta love fiber channel. ;-)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Mark Grant

Just look at how much _extra_ hardware you need in order to make P2 workable.

This was a huge point of my post. And why I said that this camera isn't right for everyone. But at the same time, a lot of the extra hardware isn't all that extreme... It's pretty straight forward to implement a 4 drive storage system in a RAID3 config and doesn't cost all that much. When working with HD video, such a drive array is almost necessary (especially if there's any work with mutliple streams or compositing work). While DV tape is nice and convenient and cheap, I'm also puzzled about something else that people complain about with P2 media... Backups. Yes, we need a way to archive our video and the work we do with it... But shooting/storing 720p24 with the HVX requires less than double the amount of storage and archival space of regular DV, yet people can't seem to get their head around various backup solutions... Do people not make backups of their work or am I just about the only one?

I guess you could say that I'm rather perplexed with the typical arguments against P2. Most of the obstacles cited as reasons to not invest into P2 right now are obstacles that have been present with DV ever since it was introduced, although 720p24n presents them on a 37.5% larger scale. If you're currently using a production model that takes a shoot to DV tape, capture to NLE system, stick the DV tape on the shelf; followed by edit on the NLE and build your production without proper backups, then this camera is not for you. The only advantage DV tape has over P2 is that you automatically have a pretty reliable archive of your shoot right from the start. Other than that, storage requirements and backup requirements are proportionately less for DVCPROHD-100 today than these same requirements were for miniDV when it arrived. And archival of original DVCPROHD footage isn't a big deal... Just use DVD-R if you must or by a 320GB LTO or AIT tape system. 16GB spanned across 4 DVD-R will cost you about $1.80 and a bit of time. If you have a competent workstation that can ingest your P2s fast enough, you should be able to log your footage and archive to DVD faster than waiting for a realtime transfer. Ideally, you would ingest to redundant RAID and have automated tape backups and then just swap the tape every day or two or however often it's full or whatnot. A competent RAID solution with a decent tape drive and a box of tapes should cost you less than the bare HVX200 camcorder by quite a bit.

The only real shortcoming of P2 right now vs. DV tape is record time. This is a temporary situation and intermediary solutions are due over the next few months via the FireStore and Cineporter.

...I know everyone won't agree with me, but just because a camera package may fit into a sub-$10K price range, doesn't mean it will always drop right into a sub-$10K production environment. There are plenty of work-arounds to incorporate a camera like this into a given workflow. But in some situations it just won't work. If you think it won't work for you, even after considering possible work-arounds or workflow changes, then it's probably not the right camera for you. So, what is it about the HDV crowd that keeps recycling the same complaints over DVCPRO and P2? If the camera and pricing don't work, move on... There are other options. If you're still here and still complaining, what is it that you're really complaining about? I know for many, they're DVX users that want to progress with the next evolution of their camera, but find that it doesn't fit their workflow and budget. Then there's also variable frame rate envy from the HDV crowd I've noticed...