HVX to Powerbook Capture Results

[Ash Greyson]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

I understand your reluctance to stop using the XL series; I shot my first DV demo using the XL2-s but after my first direct comparison between the DVX100A/B and XL2 footage I was convinced of what I always felt about Canon color output: it's weak and bland, at best.

Check out www.adamwilt.com; there are direct comparisons between the DV/HDV/DVCPRO color. You'll see firsthand why HDV is inferior to the DVCPRO color space. Additionally, there is a 3 camera shootout (I can't find the web-link anymore) between the DVX100B, XL2 and the FX1(?) - that too will show you how drastically different Canon color is from others.

As I always say, color is far more important than resolution whether it's digi-stills or video and the closer you can get to chrome/film-like chroma out of the camera, the more gorgeous your footage will be.

So far, the HVX is holding true to the DVX reputation with respect to color output: It's flat-out amazing and from our controlled (and non-controlled) testing it's superior to the Z1, HD100 and H1 by far.

The SDI out from the H1 is a cool feature, but the reality of actually using it isn't either cost effective or easy to deal with. And if you have a project that demands your out-of-the-camera footage be uncompressed then you'd need to have a budget that would allow for a Grass Valley Viper or FW900 and REALLY have an output that would truly benefit from an uncompressed workflow.

Have you seen the color out of an F900? Very flat and pastel looking. Color can also cause NOISE and loss of resolution. I can make an XL2 pop just like a DVX, you can tweak color and saturation in post, you cannot add resolution. With an XL2 all the color info is there for you to play with later. Like the F900 it comes very flat out of the box. If you need help with the Canon setting I will glady share any settings but your conclusions are simply incorrect.


ash =o)

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

Have you seen the color out of an F900? Very flat and pastel looking. Color can also cause NOISE and loss of resolution. I can make an XL2 pop just like a DVX, you can tweak color and saturation in post, you cannot add resolution. With an XL2 all the color info is there for you to play with later. Like the F900 it comes very flat out of the box. If you need help with the Canon setting I will glady share any settings but your conclusions are simply incorrect.


ash =o)

Yes, even 35mm or 16mm that isn't color corrected can look VERY ugly.

[Robert Lane]

Guys, this is getting way off topic. We've had plenty of measurbator threads about color/quality/noise.

This thread is about PowerBook capture results. If anybody has anything else to add, let's continue. If not, let's call it a day and close this thread.

Chris?

[Ash Greyson]

Well, you cant really bash a company or a camera, especially with incorrect conjectures and not expect a retort...

Back to the subject at hand.... tried out a P2 store today. Very solid device but with verify on (you would be SILLY to turn it off) it takes 2 minutes per gig. When shooting in 1080i that means 8 minutes to store 4 minutes of footage. Makes no real sense. I am going to try and keep testing direct capture to an external HDD...

As predicted by me early on, almost everyone is recommending a tape storage back-up, one came out this week that holds 300GB per $100 tape and will allow restoration of partial files...



ash =o)

[Barry Werger]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

This thread is about PowerBook capture results. If anybody has anything else to add, let's continue. If not, let's call it a day and close this thread.

Robert... sniff... please try mode 3B?

[John Benton]

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

As predicted by me early on, almost everyone is recommending a tape storage back-up, one came out this week that holds 300GB per $100 tape and will allow restoration of partial files...



ash =o)

Vas Is Das?

[Ash Greyson]

Most the middle-men who deal with manufactures direct are recommending that you back-up your P2 to HDD and your HDD to tape. There is a new tape drive (by Quantum I think) that has 300GB tapes that can access partial data, not just restore full P2 files (ie you can get 30 seconds off it if need be). I think it is around $8k street with $100 tapes. The point of P2 is that while it is convenient, it is destructive, therefore must be backed up to TAPE, not platters. At the end of the day the P2 workflow requires a large investment and a net ZERO in time saved. The difference is that much of the work is on the back end which means your clients get to see progess and even delivery quicker.

Ultimately, I think P2 will find its place but not in the consumer realm...



ash =o)

[Robert Lane]

Originally Posted by Barry Werger

Robert... sniff... please try mode 3B?

Oh, stop sniveling Barry, it's so not like you... (laughs)

Just for you I did try a very quick test of the "3B" config; no problems were noticed. The OWC drive we use has both FW800 and 400 ports so it was an easy switch to try this config.

The Panasonic manual - and most FW experts will tell you - that any FW cable is stable up to 4.5 meters for full DV transmission (any compressed format, not uncompressed). If you use a cable longer than that you risk signal degradation from several factors: RFI; natural distance-resistance loss; and standing wave harmonics - the ability for the cable to act as if it were the ground-plane of an antenna.

The LaCie PCMCIA FW card comes with it's own external power supply for just such issues. If a cable longer than 4.5 meters is used to connect either a camera or drive it's highly recommended you use the power supply. AFAIK, the LaCie card is the only one that comes with this power supply - without paying extra.

In our studio setup we are using 2 long cables and have a FW repeater in between to boost the signal. Many FW repeaters also come with their own independent power supply, should you need it.

However, connecting a power supply does not negate the need for using Ferrite Cores. In fact, using another power supply means you're introducing yet another device that can create RFI, so it's cable must also have Cores on it. We have them on each end of every cable that touches either the camera, PB or external drive.

Cores are important in helping keep the signal path as clean as possible to not only prevent dropouts but also keep any unwanted, stray signals from entering into your capture data.

*Simple* data transfers between drives are not as susceptible to corruption as full video and audio captures are. There is some built-in error correction in bit checking that goes on during data transfer since both drives actually talk to each other and *handshake* throughout the process just like a modem or fax machine does.

However, that handshaking between devices does not include a drive talking to the camera, in fact when a camera is outputting it's signal to any device through FW it's a one-way conversation and the bit-stream of data *is-what-it-is* to the receiving drive. The drive cannot say, "hey..slow down a bit, I don't recognize this blitter crap you're sending me". If the camera sends out a dropout or any other unwanted artifact all the drive can do is record what it's getting. The only way we know of dropouts or other capture issues is when we preview the capture - a human process, not an automated computer-driven algorithm.

So, it's a long-winded rant but if you are using long cables and want to keep your interface clean, look into using Ferrites as part of the data-transmission solution.

[Barry Werger]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

Oh, stop sniveling Barry, it's so not like you... (laughs)

Shows how well you know me... ;-)

Anyway, THANKS! Just wanted to make sure.

I don't anticipate using such long cables for the time being... but will follow your advice anyway. However, I do have a PC card FW interface (argh, can't remember the name right now) that has a nice feature... it steals power form a USB port, and passes it as bus power to a firewire device for a simple laptop solution (it also can be powered externally).

However, I'm not clear why the power would affect long-cable transmission as you say - does power even flow at all through a 6->4 FW cable? What's the intuition here?

Thanks again,
Barry

[Robert Lane]

Barry,

4-pin does not carry power, only 9 or 6-pin connections.

The FW bus is designed for up to 45 watts, with a maximum of 1.5 amps and 30 volts of power. However, most laptops and cardbus adapters do not supply power which is why the LaCie PCMCIA card comes with it's own power supply.

[Barry Werger]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

4-pin does not carry power, only 9 or 6-pin connections.

So you're talking about the computer -> drive connection? I don't know how often that's an issue... the camera-laptop connection is the one I'd likely want to stretch as far as possible...

The FW bus is designed for up to 45 watts, with a maximum of 1.5 amps and 30 volts of power. However, most laptops and cardbus adapters do not supply power which is why the LaCie PCMCIA card comes with it's own power supply.

Right; I'm just saying there's other ones that do the same, and other approaches (e.g., USB power stealing...)

[David M. Payne]

I found the answers I need, so nevermind.

David

[Hans Damkoehler]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

connecting a power supply does not negate the need for using Ferrite Cores.

Hey Robert,

Hope your latest shoot went well.

Quick question ... where to find ferrite cores ... I seem to be hitting a roadblock in acquiring them (other than stealing off of all of my other gear :o)

[Robert Lane]

Originally Posted by Hans Damkoehler

Hey Robert,

Hope your latest shoot went well.

Quick question ... where to find ferrite cores ... I seem to be hitting a roadblock in acquiring them (other than stealing off of all of my other gear :o)

I get them from Digikey (www.digikey.com). You might want to download the ZCAT-type PDF from TDK first. Ferrites come in various sizes based on outer diameter of the cable it's going on and, the RF reduction value the core is designed to work with.

Here are 2 TDK part numbers for the cores I use the most:

- ZCAT 2035-0930-BK
- ZCAT 1730-0730-BK

They also come in two colors: grey and black. The "BK" identifier at the end of the part number is the black version.

If you can't make sense of the TDK part numbers in the PDF catalog shoot me an email or give me a call and I'll walk you through how to get the right size ferrite.

Here's the address for the TDK PDF catalog of snap-on Ferrite Cores: http://www.tdk.co.jp/tefe02/e9a15_zcat.pdf .

[David M. Payne]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

Barry,

4-pin does not carry power, only 9 or 6-pin connections.

The FW bus is designed for up to 45 watts, with a maximum of 1.5 amps and 30 volts of power. However, most laptops and cardbus adapters do not supply power which is why the LaCie PCMCIA card comes with it's own power supply.

Robert I do have one question on the LaCie card and recording with my two HVX200's. I ordered two LaCie FW800 cards for the two 15" old/new 1.67 gig processor and 1.5 gigs of ram Apple PB G4's, to run out to the OWC 500GB RAID drives, but I don't understand how the LaCie's have their own power supply. (I'm not a geek, just a 57 year old guy who is doing a movie based on one of my short stories and I've got a lot to learn in the process.) I've checked the ads and this forum as well as the DVX forum and found no mention of an independant power supply for the card. I plan to plug in the power books when I'm shooting and was wondering if the card draws power from the PB or what? Thanks.

David