HVX200 and Blu Ray at DVinfo.net

Jay Morris · January 15th, 2006, 04:15 PM

When talking archiving or backing up HVX200 footage, many of you bring up that Blu Ray may be the best solution in the future. My last camera was the Sony DSR 500. My work flow was:

1. Shoot DVCAM tape (this was my long term archive solution for the raw footage)
2. Digitize the tape(s) and edit
3. Put the final edit on a DVCAM master tape (another archive solution)
4. Export a file of the final edit to be used to make a DVD
5. Create a DVD in IDVD or DVD Studio Pro (this became the SD distribution solution)

My question is about the new work flow with the HVX200 and Blu Ray. Does this sound about right or am I missing something:

1. Shoot with the HVX200 onto P2 cards
2. Back up P2 files on Blu Ray Data Disks -- 50GB per disk (this becomes the loss-less archive solution for the raw footage -- several disks may be needed depending on the amount of footage involved)
3. Import P2 files and edit
4. Export a file of the final edit to be used to make Blu Ray Disks
5. Create Blu Ray disks that play on Blu Ray consumer machines (this becomes the HD distribution solution)
6. Export a loss-less file of the final edit to burn onto a Blu Ray Data Disk (this becomes the master archive solution -- you may have to break up your master timeline into several files if it won't fit onto 1 Blu Ray Disk)

I'm obviously hoping that the Blu Ray burner will be like the Mac Super Drive. That, like DVD's, you can write loss-less Blu Ray Data Disks AND you can also create compressed Blu Ray disks that can play HD Video and audio on a consumer Blu Ray Player.

Am I totally misunderstanding how Blu Ray will work and how it can be used with HVX200 footage??? Will it just be a stand alone HD video player/recorder or will it also be a drive that I can connect to my G5 (via firewire maybe)?

Also, I will be shooting 720 24p footage. Does this flavor of HD work well with Blu Ray or will other steps be involved? Will I have to do pull down? Will it have to be converted to 1080i?

Thanks for the info. This is all new to me. If Blu Ray works like DVD (Data storage or consumer video disk), I won't buy a back up solution until it comes out. I can just keep everything on my 1 TB sata G raid drive and pray that it doesn't die anytime soon! If I run out of space, I can painfully make DVD Data Disks.

Jeff Kilgroe · January 16th, 2006, 01:45 PM

That workflow will work OK... BluRay does everything DVD does and more, so yes there will be data disc capabilities.

You may not always back up to BluRay right off, perhaps you will pull the data onto a local storage network or redundant RAID and then do backups at regular intervals. You'll have to see what works for you. But with 4~8GB P2 cards, it wouldn't be a big deal to just incrementally copy P2 cards to a disc as needed until the disc is full and then just go to another disc.

As for output to a BluRay video disc, BluRay supports both 720p (24, 30 and 60 fps) and 1080i60 formats. Apple's DVD Studio Pro is supposed to be ready for both BluRay and HD-DVD by the time these technologies ship in a couple months. On the PC side of things, that's somewhat up in the air... The best two solutions are Encore and Vegas+DVD (DVD Lab is OK too, but won't support HD anytime soon). Encore probably won't be ready for launch time and I'm betting that Vegas+DVD will support BluRay with the next release around NAB time, but won't support the competing HD-DVD.

Bob Grant · January 16th, 2006, 03:21 PM

You could also look into the Zip Rev disks, around 30GB of removable storage and very cheap drives.
These same disks are what Grass Valley are using in their cameras as well.

Jay Morris · January 16th, 2006, 03:30 PM

Thanks for the info guys. I think that Blu Ray makes the HVX200 process complete. So when will it come out and how much will a burner cost? I hope that you can buy an external one that hooks up to firewire or USB2. My PCI slots are filled to the max. Any ideas?

Jeff Kilgroe · January 16th, 2006, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

You could also look into the Zip Rev disks, around 30GB of removable storage and very cheap drives.
These same disks are what Grass Valley are using in their cameras as well.

As has been discussed in other threads here. The REV discs aren't a great idea for long-term storage. They're nothing more than a 30GB hard drive platter in a plastic shell. Due to the drive mechanism being contained in the drive rather than the disc cartridge, these should be more reliable than hard drives, but in the long run will be less reliable than a tape backup solution or optical disc. Probably not bad for an interim solution though - the odds of failure are still very low, after all Thomson/GV is using them for acquisition and I've seen them used for other non-video, but still demanding, applications too.

Bob Grant · January 16th, 2006, 04:42 PM

Jeff,
as someone who retrieves material from and makes archival recordings just how long anything will last is a major concern for me and certainly the Rev disks are cause for concern. But to date I've seen nothing about how long burnt Blu Ray disks are going to last either.

Jeff Kilgroe · January 16th, 2006, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

Jeff,
as someone who retrieves material from and makes archival recordings just how long anything will last is a major concern for me and certainly the Rev disks are cause for concern. But to date I've seen nothing about how long burnt Blu Ray disks are going to last either.

Very true. All we can surmize is that BluRay and HD-DVD will have similar shelf-life compared to current CD and DVD recordables. Manufacturers claim they will last 100+ years. Is there any way to prove that? Nope. I suppose in another 85 years my grandchildren can pull some old CDRs off the shelf and see if they still work and if they do, cool... If they don't, my descendants can call the manufacturer (if they still exist) and call them a buch of dirty liars on my behalf.

In reality, REV drives are going to be pretty safe. As long as they are kept away from electromagnetic fields or concentrated radio waves. Nothing is perfect and any format - tape, optical disc, etc... can fail and are vulnerable to different things.

Paul Matwiy · January 17th, 2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

As has been discussed in other threads here. The REV discs aren't a great idea for long-term storage. They're nothing more than a 30GB hard drive platter in a plastic shell. Due to the drive mechanism being contained in the drive rather than the disc cartridge, these should be more reliable than hard drives, but in the long run will be less reliable than a tape backup solution or optical disc.

Current test show a life expectancy of Recordable Optical Discs of only 2-5 years. This is due to dye aging and migration in the recording layer. Too bad. I was hoping for something better.

Jeff Kilgroe · January 17th, 2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Matwiy

Current test show a life expectancy of Recordable Optical Discs of only 2-5 years. This is due to dye aging and migration in the recording layer. Too bad. I was hoping for something better.

What current tests and conducted by who? All the manufacturers are still claiming insanely long shelf-life (100 years) and I have CDRs that are 12 years old and still work just fine. I have DVD-Rs that are 4 years old, and they still work just fine too. Not all optical discs use photo dye technology either. Many of them such as the silver substrate ones are a photo reaction to the laser beam and once the reaction alters the chemical makeup of the beam site, it's set. No dye to bleed.

RW discs are a different story, most manufacturers are only claiming 15 to 20 year shelf life with these due to their easily rewritable nature.

Most optical discs are vulnerable to UV and XRay emissions as well as heat, even intense incandescent or fluorescent light for extended periods of time - like setting your DVD with data side up on a desk for 2 years under fluorescent light. They are far from perfect just like any other format, but whoever is claiming 2~5 years is smoking crack or storing their CDRs on the dashboard of their car. Dye aging and migration? Sure, it happens... Just the same as magnetic charges dissipate and migrate on the surface of a magnetic disc or tape ribbon.

We can pick apart various archival solutions all day long without determining a clear victor. I think the better lesson learned is that we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket. Including storing your only master copy of video footage on a single DV tape... I've lost a few DV tapes over the years too. Be it stray cosmic radiation, manufacturer defects or a stupid mistake like setting the box of DV tapes on a shelf only 8' below a step-down transformer or within a few feet of an electrical panel in the warehouse. Nothing is perfect.

Peter Ferling · January 23rd, 2006, 03:17 PM

About 10 years from my experience. I have a good deal of music cd's that I've backed up and much of the stuff from the 90's is going bad.

We were all mislead in thinking that lab created/tested models and a little theory would stand up for cheap replication and disks built in less than satifactory cleanroom environments.

I've read that some of the inks/adhesives used in the earlier days helped to break down the thin plastic layer (the top part, where you write on or apply a label is actually the thinnist), and expose the metal recording part underneath, this in turns causes oxidation and corrossion. In short, much of my older cd's rusted.

You can purchase a gold standard cd made that is supposed to last about 300 years, as it's manufactured in high grade cleanroom environments, using controlled materials, etc. I don't remember the company name, but a simple search should help.

However, ten years is ample enough for most of my projects. Much longer than the typical three to five years lifetime I've experienced with hard drives.

Steev Dinkins · January 23rd, 2006, 04:58 PM

I took all my CD-Rs and consolidated to DVD-Rs recently, and the only CD-R that was unreadable was physically cracked. All CD-Rs as far back as 1996 were fine.

Peter Jefferson · January 24th, 2006, 06:30 AM

Jay M, thats pretty much the same workflow ive got here, and THATS the workflow ive been considering once HD solutions come to the fore.. the issue is with cost..
if cost isnt a problem, then i say go for it, but for me, ill need to increase my prices to be able to maintain this. Blue ray discs wont be cheap on the outset, on top of that ill need a viable long term storage solution as i knwo there wil be times where i wotn get to an edit for at least 3 months after a shoot (weddings in that case)

To me, the blue ray option seems to be the only one thats worth considering in this situation.. im fearful of costs though, and until the dust settles, i wont be worryin too much about HD...
Put it this way, for me to jump to DVCProHD, i need to ensure my NLE supports it first of all, then i have to ensure i have enough storage to house it all, then i have at least 2 the cameras, P2s, P2Store or firestore (havent decided but i might just go firestore... bit risky though as ive had issues with them... ) THEN i have to upgrade the finsihing system, encoding and final delivery...
to me, this will be AT LEAST a 20 thousand dollar upgrade... and thats with 1 camera + P2s
20 grand is alot of money...
Or i can put that 20 grand towards the new Sony XDcam (F330 i think it was), and thats pretty much all i need coz my NLE supports (and will support the new HD variant) and id continue to use intermediate formats as i do now with the Z1

its a tough choice... P2 is just gold but XDCam is a VERY close second.. teh only thing letting it down is the format. Dont get me wrogn for a Z1, HDV is perfectly fine for the price.. but the F330 is just too much cash to let go of if i get the same nuances i get from HDV.

Its not an easy decision and i dont look forward to making it...

January 15th, 2006, 04:15 PM	#1
Jay Morris Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 48	HVX200 and Blu Ray When talking archiving or backing up HVX200 footage, many of you bring up that Blu Ray may be the best solution in the future. My last camera was the Sony DSR 500. My work flow was: 1. Shoot DVCAM tape (this was my long term archive solution for the raw footage) 2. Digitize the tape(s) and edit 3. Put the final edit on a DVCAM master tape (another archive solution) 4. Export a file of the final edit to be used to make a DVD 5. Create a DVD in IDVD or DVD Studio Pro (this became the SD distribution solution) My question is about the new work flow with the HVX200 and Blu Ray. Does this sound about right or am I missing something: 1. Shoot with the HVX200 onto P2 cards 2. Back up P2 files on Blu Ray Data Disks -- 50GB per disk (this becomes the loss-less archive solution for the raw footage -- several disks may be needed depending on the amount of footage involved) 3. Import P2 files and edit 4. Export a file of the final edit to be used to make Blu Ray Disks 5. Create Blu Ray disks that play on Blu Ray consumer machines (this becomes the HD distribution solution) 6. Export a loss-less file of the final edit to burn onto a Blu Ray Data Disk (this becomes the master archive solution -- you may have to break up your master timeline into several files if it won't fit onto 1 Blu Ray Disk) I'm obviously hoping that the Blu Ray burner will be like the Mac Super Drive. That, like DVD's, you can write loss-less Blu Ray Data Disks AND you can also create compressed Blu Ray disks that can play HD Video and audio on a consumer Blu Ray Player. Am I totally misunderstanding how Blu Ray will work and how it can be used with HVX200 footage??? Will it just be a stand alone HD video player/recorder or will it also be a drive that I can connect to my G5 (via firewire maybe)? Also, I will be shooting 720 24p footage. Does this flavor of HD work well with Blu Ray or will other steps be involved? Will I have to do pull down? Will it have to be converted to 1080i? Thanks for the info. This is all new to me. If Blu Ray works like DVD (Data storage or consumer video disk), I won't buy a back up solution until it comes out. I can just keep everything on my 1 TB sata G raid drive and pray that it doesn't die anytime soon! If I run out of space, I can painfully make DVD Data Disks.

January 16th, 2006, 01:45 PM	#2
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	That workflow will work OK... BluRay does everything DVD does and more, so yes there will be data disc capabilities. You may not always back up to BluRay right off, perhaps you will pull the data onto a local storage network or redundant RAID and then do backups at regular intervals. You'll have to see what works for you. But with 4~8GB P2 cards, it wouldn't be a big deal to just incrementally copy P2 cards to a disc as needed until the disc is full and then just go to another disc. As for output to a BluRay video disc, BluRay supports both 720p (24, 30 and 60 fps) and 1080i60 formats. Apple's DVD Studio Pro is supposed to be ready for both BluRay and HD-DVD by the time these technologies ship in a couple months. On the PC side of things, that's somewhat up in the air... The best two solutions are Encore and Vegas+DVD (DVD Lab is OK too, but won't support HD anytime soon). Encore probably won't be ready for launch time and I'm betting that Vegas+DVD will support BluRay with the next release around NAB time, but won't support the competing HD-DVD. __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

January 23rd, 2006, 04:58 PM	#11
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	I took all my CD-Rs and consolidated to DVD-Rs recently, and the only CD-R that was unreadable was physically cracked. All CD-Rs as far back as 1996 were fine. __________________ www.holyzoo.com

January 16th, 2006, 03:21 PM	#3
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	You could also look into the Zip Rev disks, around 30GB of removable storage and very cheap drives. These same disks are what Grass Valley are using in their cameras as well.

January 16th, 2006, 03:30 PM	#4
Jay Morris Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 48	Thanks for the info guys. I think that Blu Ray makes the HVX200 process complete. So when will it come out and how much will a burner cost? I hope that you can buy an external one that hooks up to firewire or USB2. My PCI slots are filled to the max. Any ideas?

January 16th, 2006, 04:42 PM	#6
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	Jeff, as someone who retrieves material from and makes archival recordings just how long anything will last is a major concern for me and certainly the Rev disks are cause for concern. But to date I've seen nothing about how long burnt Blu Ray disks are going to last either.

January 23rd, 2006, 03:17 PM	#10
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	About 10 years from my experience. I have a good deal of music cd's that I've backed up and much of the stuff from the 90's is going bad. We were all mislead in thinking that lab created/tested models and a little theory would stand up for cheap replication and disks built in less than satifactory cleanroom environments. I've read that some of the inks/adhesives used in the earlier days helped to break down the thin plastic layer (the top part, where you write on or apply a label is actually the thinnist), and expose the metal recording part underneath, this in turns causes oxidation and corrossion. In short, much of my older cd's rusted. You can purchase a gold standard cd made that is supposed to last about 300 years, as it's manufactured in high grade cleanroom environments, using controlled materials, etc. I don't remember the company name, but a simple search should help. However, ten years is ample enough for most of my projects. Much longer than the typical three to five years lifetime I've experienced with hard drives.

January 24th, 2006, 06:30 AM	#12
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Jay M, thats pretty much the same workflow ive got here, and THATS the workflow ive been considering once HD solutions come to the fore.. the issue is with cost.. if cost isnt a problem, then i say go for it, but for me, ill need to increase my prices to be able to maintain this. Blue ray discs wont be cheap on the outset, on top of that ill need a viable long term storage solution as i knwo there wil be times where i wotn get to an edit for at least 3 months after a shoot (weddings in that case) To me, the blue ray option seems to be the only one thats worth considering in this situation.. im fearful of costs though, and until the dust settles, i wont be worryin too much about HD... Put it this way, for me to jump to DVCProHD, i need to ensure my NLE supports it first of all, then i have to ensure i have enough storage to house it all, then i have at least 2 the cameras, P2s, P2Store or firestore (havent decided but i might just go firestore... bit risky though as ive had issues with them... ) THEN i have to upgrade the finsihing system, encoding and final delivery... to me, this will be AT LEAST a 20 thousand dollar upgrade... and thats with 1 camera + P2s 20 grand is alot of money... Or i can put that 20 grand towards the new Sony XDcam (F330 i think it was), and thats pretty much all i need coz my NLE supports (and will support the new HD variant) and id continue to use intermediate formats as i do now with the Z1 its a tough choice... P2 is just gold but XDCam is a VERY close second.. teh only thing letting it down is the format. Dont get me wrogn for a Z1, HDV is perfectly fine for the price.. but the F330 is just too much cash to let go of if i get the same nuances i get from HDV. Its not an easy decision and i dont look forward to making it...