The HVX200 is not a prosumer camera

Stephen L. Noe · January 6th, 2006, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Pappas

Not true.

Show's shot in film have a pathway into HD syndication. Sitcoms that were shot in ntsc video look very bad in the HD realm. Show's shot on film like Cheers, FamilyTies, Seinfeld, Friends all shot in film can be retransferred and look even better with modern grading technology in the HD realm.

You shoot for the future. This archive, think Library. Presentation technology improves, film for that possibility.

Andy Griffith, I Love Lucy, and Dick Van Dyke will STILL go strong in HD.

Thanks Desilu

Michael Pappas · January 6th, 2006, 08:01 PM

<<<<(I mean of course, BESIDES TECHNICAL GEEKS like the ones going around these boards ;-))[/quote]
>>>

Not true.

Show's shot in film have a pathway into HD syndication. Sitcoms that were shot in ntsc video look very bad in the HD realm. Show's shot on film like Cheers, FamilyTies, Seinfeld, Friends all shot in film can be retransferred and look even better with modern grading technology in the HD realm.

You shoot for the future. The archive; think Library. Presentation technology improves; film for that possibility.
Back in the late 80's & early 90's I sat in on these very discussions in Hollywood among engineers and DP's. Persevering the best and acquiring the best master. Just cause your client can't utilize the HD now, he just might come knocking on your door down the road wanting a better version. It's a lot cheaper than shooting the whole project over to a higher standard. Start as high as your budget will allow, and then work your way down if that is were the final product goes.

Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site

XLH1 and HVX200 frame grabs and news here:
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms

http://www.PappasArts.com
http://www.Myspace.com/

Mathieu Ghekiere · January 6th, 2006, 08:02 PM

But do you think they will keep shooting series on film too, as opposed to HD?
I have my doubts about it, personally. If even filmmakers (and I know, at this moment, not that many of them, but still) are going more and more to HD...

(PS: I know films will be shot on 35mm for a Looooong time, but still...)

Michael Pappas · January 6th, 2006, 08:13 PM

<<But do you think they will keep shooting series on film too, as opposed to HD? >>>

Mathieu did you read what you wrote a couple of posts back. We are answering to your statement about DV level quality looking good. Yeah, on a SD tv, not a HD tv. SD is going bye bye, in 15 years SD will be mostly gone from most peoples homes in Major Markets in the USA and abroad. That's what Stephen and I are responding too. Shoot either HD or Film...

No one ever said HD over film or Film over HD.

This is what we were responding too, Below....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathieu Ghekiere

Because who will notice the difference on a television screen?You can even get away with well shot DV footage on a television screen.

Mathieu Ghekiere · January 6th, 2006, 08:32 PM

Yes, I was already afraid your quote was more oriented at that quote from me, so I suspected it, but wasn't sure.
That quote was just meant to say that at an SD television you can get away with even DV, so HD would be surely enough, even for HDTV.
That's what I meant, I didn't want to imply series could or should be shot on regular DV.
It was just to make my point about video versus film.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that.

PS: only now saw that when you quoted me, you let out the HD part, so I oversaw that. My mistake.

Charles Papert · January 8th, 2006, 12:10 AM

There have been quite a few instances of HD being tested on episodic shows and the decision ultimately made to shoot in film as the HD technology is considered not quite ready for primetime in many instances (there are exceptions). When HD cameras can achieve the portability, flexibility and dynamic range of film as we currently know it, things will certainly change, but for now the process is still cumbersome.

I think that cameras such as the Arri D20 and the Genesis are the bridge to an acceptance of HD in the episodic world. Compatibility with existing 35mm lenses and accessories, onboard recording (hard drive and tape drive, respectively) and more robust imaging than the current generation of 2/3" HD cameras will create more interest, once the bugs are worked out.

It's getting there. And it will eventually happen.

Rodrigo Gil Medina · January 8th, 2006, 04:55 PM

I've always had the idea that Panasonic names their profesional gear starting with "AJ" as in "AJ-SPX800" and their consumer gear with "AG" as in "AG-DVC60" Isn't this true??

Michael Pappas · January 8th, 2006, 05:13 PM

Nope consumer is PV. AG back in the day was on Industrial/ Professional line. Like the old AG-7500's and AG-6400's etc. Those were NOT consumer. gear...

Here is an AG-7500 & Ag-dvc200............ BTW: My AG-6400 bought in the 80's still works. I needed to watch a tape shot 16yrs ago and it worked......

http://www.dvt.com.au/images/Ag-dvc200.jpg

http://www.geocities.jp/takosankobo/AG1.jpg

http://www.broadcaststore.com/images...large/5691.jpg

Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site

XLH1 and HVX200 frame grabs and news here:
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms

http://www.PappasArts.com
http://www.Myspace.com/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodrigo Gil Medina

I've always had the idea that Panasonic names their profesional gear starting with "AJ" as in "AJ-SPX800" and their consumer gear with "AG" as in "AG-DVC60" Isn't this true??

Walter Graff · January 12th, 2006, 01:20 PM

Just to put this discussion to rest.

Panasonic Chief Technology Officer Paul Liao stated in TV technology this week while referring to the HVX200:

"When other camcorder makers proposed the HDV format for higher end CONSUMER PRODUCTS, Panasonic choose not to support it...our understanding of CONSUMERS and fundamentals of video imaging told us that the right answers for CONSUMERS was not HDV."

This does not mean TV stations, and major pros can't an will not use the HVX200 when it suits the need, but take away the marketing and these small form cameras are designed for consumer use.

A professional P2 camera would be something like the AJ-spx900.

Stephen L. Noe · January 12th, 2006, 01:45 PM

One hand doesn't know what the other is doing at Panasonic.

Panasonic's published P2 workflow specifies the HVX200 as a news gathering field camera. They've included the news gamma on the camera's presets for a reason.

Craig Schober · January 12th, 2006, 02:21 PM

panasonic can call it whatever they want but ultimately the users will dub it whatever it is to them and most of them will call it a prosumer cam. it's not based on all the great features. prosumer relates directly to price and this camera fits neatly in between low end sony hd consumer cams and high end pro hd cams.

Jim Giberti · January 12th, 2006, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walter Graff

Just to put this discussion to rest.

Panasonic Chief Technology Officer Paul Liao stated in TV technology this week while referring to the HVX200:

"When other camcorder makers proposed the HDV format for higher end CONSUMER PRODUCTS, Panasonic choose not to support it...our understanding of CONSUMERS and fundamentals of video imaging told us that the right answers for CONSUMERS was not HDV."

This does not mean TV stations, and major pros can't an will not use the HVX200 when it suits the need, but take away the marketing and these small form cameras are designed for consumer use.

A professional P2 camera would be something like the AJ-spx900.

Manufacturers don't determine the professional end use of their products, professionals do.

Both the H1 and HVX will be used for film making, commercial work and other paying (professional) work far more than graduation videos.

There's a market full of litle cameras that consumers want to put in their bags and take onvacation and to family events.

Trust me, the HVX and XL-H1 are not the ones their looking at in Best Buy.

Walter Graff · January 12th, 2006, 09:09 PM

"Manufacturers don't determine the professional end use of their products, professionals do."

You are correct but now there are so many wannabe filmmakers out there that marketing by association helps make consumer cameras appear to be pro cameras when they were not designed as such. Any camera with a Tv remote is not my first choice in the professional world. But a s a pro I can tell you It's me that determines what camera and format I use, not a manufacture. It's just sad to see all of the hype over a 1/3 inch camera. It's turning out just as I said, all of these 1/3 inch small form HD cameras are looking to be about equal in overall picture and results just as their Dv counterparts are. you can't squeeze blood from stone. Without a real lens, substantial electronics, and a decent CCD, these cameras are modified consumer cameras aka prosumer. In fact the HVX was on display at the Consumer Electronics Show. As I said it's not a pro camera but whatever Panasonic can do to sell it, consumer or pro they will do. Nothing wrong with that, just sad that folks who can't afford lights or knowledge would pluck down 10k for something that isn't going to do much more for them then the DVX they are selling to get it. See a camera does not make one a pro rather a pro makes a camera shoot well.

Chris Hurd · January 13th, 2006, 09:25 AM

This thread, like several others recently, is beyond done. Time to discuss something else,

January 6th, 2006, 08:02 PM	#33
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	But do you think they will keep shooting series on film too, as opposed to HD? I have my doubts about it, personally. If even filmmakers (and I know, at this moment, not that many of them, but still) are going more and more to HD... (PS: I know films will be shot on 35mm for a Looooong time, but still...) __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

January 6th, 2006, 08:32 PM	#35
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	Yes, I was already afraid your quote was more oriented at that quote from me, so I suspected it, but wasn't sure. That quote was just meant to say that at an SD television you can get away with even DV, so HD would be surely enough, even for HDTV. That's what I meant, I didn't want to imply series could or should be shot on regular DV. It was just to make my point about video versus film. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that. PS: only now saw that when you quoted me, you let out the HD part, so I oversaw that. My mistake. __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

January 8th, 2006, 12:10 AM	#36
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	There have been quite a few instances of HD being tested on episodic shows and the decision ultimately made to shoot in film as the HD technology is considered not quite ready for primetime in many instances (there are exceptions). When HD cameras can achieve the portability, flexibility and dynamic range of film as we currently know it, things will certainly change, but for now the process is still cumbersome. I think that cameras such as the Arri D20 and the Genesis are the bridge to an acceptance of HD in the episodic world. Compatibility with existing 35mm lenses and accessories, onboard recording (hard drive and tape drive, respectively) and more robust imaging than the current generation of 2/3" HD cameras will create more interest, once the bugs are worked out. It's getting there. And it will eventually happen. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

January 8th, 2006, 04:55 PM	#37
Rodrigo Gil Medina Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada. Posts: 52	I've always had the idea that Panasonic names their profesional gear starting with "AJ" as in "AJ-SPX800" and their consumer gear with "AG" as in "AG-DVC60" Isn't this true?? __________________ www.8cho.com.mx

January 12th, 2006, 02:21 PM	#41
Craig Schober New Boot Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 13	hvx is prosumer panasonic can call it whatever they want but ultimately the users will dub it whatever it is to them and most of them will call it a prosumer cam. it's not based on all the great features. prosumer relates directly to price and this camera fits neatly in between low end sony hd consumer cams and high end pro hd cams.

January 6th, 2006, 08:01 PM	#32
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	<<<<(I mean of course, BESIDES TECHNICAL GEEKS like the ones going around these boards ;-))[/quote] >>> Not true. Show's shot in film have a pathway into HD syndication. Sitcoms that were shot in ntsc video look very bad in the HD realm. Show's shot on film like Cheers, FamilyTies, Seinfeld, Friends all shot in film can be retransferred and look even better with modern grading technology in the HD realm. You shoot for the future. The archive; think Library. Presentation technology improves; film for that possibility. Back in the late 80's & early 90's I sat in on these very discussions in Hollywood among engineers and DP's. Persevering the best and acquiring the best master. Just cause your client can't utilize the HD now, he just might come knocking on your door down the road wanting a better version. It's a lot cheaper than shooting the whole project over to a higher standard. Start as high as your budget will allow, and then work your way down if that is were the final product goes. Michael Pappas Arrfilms@hotmail.com PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site XLH1 and HVX200 frame grabs and news here: http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms http://www.PappasArts.com http://www.Myspace.com/

January 12th, 2006, 01:20 PM	#39
Walter Graff Hellgate Pictures, Inc. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New York, NY Posts: 124	Just to put this discussion to rest. Panasonic Chief Technology Officer Paul Liao stated in TV technology this week while referring to the HVX200: "When other camcorder makers proposed the HDV format for higher end CONSUMER PRODUCTS, Panasonic choose not to support it...our understanding of CONSUMERS and fundamentals of video imaging told us that the right answers for CONSUMERS was not HDV." This does not mean TV stations, and major pros can't an will not use the HVX200 when it suits the need, but take away the marketing and these small form cameras are designed for consumer use. A professional P2 camera would be something like the AJ-spx900.

January 12th, 2006, 01:45 PM	#40
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	One hand doesn't know what the other is doing at Panasonic. Panasonic's published P2 workflow specifies the HVX200 as a news gathering field camera. They've included the news gamma on the camera's presets for a reason.

January 12th, 2006, 09:09 PM	#43
Walter Graff Hellgate Pictures, Inc. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New York, NY Posts: 124	"Manufacturers don't determine the professional end use of their products, professionals do." You are correct but now there are so many wannabe filmmakers out there that marketing by association helps make consumer cameras appear to be pro cameras when they were not designed as such. Any camera with a Tv remote is not my first choice in the professional world. But a s a pro I can tell you It's me that determines what camera and format I use, not a manufacture. It's just sad to see all of the hype over a 1/3 inch camera. It's turning out just as I said, all of these 1/3 inch small form HD cameras are looking to be about equal in overall picture and results just as their Dv counterparts are. you can't squeeze blood from stone. Without a real lens, substantial electronics, and a decent CCD, these cameras are modified consumer cameras aka prosumer. In fact the HVX was on display at the Consumer Electronics Show. As I said it's not a pro camera but whatever Panasonic can do to sell it, consumer or pro they will do. Nothing wrong with that, just sad that folks who can't afford lights or knowledge would pluck down 10k for something that isn't going to do much more for them then the DVX they are selling to get it. See a camera does not make one a pro rather a pro makes a camera shoot well.

January 13th, 2006, 09:25 AM	#44
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	This thread, like several others recently, is beyond done. Time to discuss something else, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!