Kaku, Shoot a Rez chart if you can!!!

Shannon Rawls · January 5th, 2006, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaku Ito

My initial test only show the resolution around 600, not 700.

WHAT????

Say it ain't so Kaku. That's all you got from the HVX200?

I dont beleive it. Man....don't trust those paper print-outs.... I keep tell' y'all!

- ShannonRawls.com

Petr Marusek · January 5th, 2006, 11:35 AM

Kaku, just post some frame grabs and let us analyze it. I don't believe that the resolution is this low. You are probably not reading the chart correctly. You should have plenty of light and the chart should be costrasty; that means that white should be white or nearly white. The chart should be 16x9 and the arrows should touch the edge of the screen. If they don't, it's fine too. We'll factor it in. I've read plenty of resolution charts. It's easy to determine the resolution. If you want me to read the charts privately first, I can give you my email address.

Alex Melia · January 5th, 2006, 11:37 AM

Man, Shannon, are you tiresome... enjoy your canon and let us live

Robert Graf · January 5th, 2006, 12:09 PM

We are all excited to see the results when they come in, but we need to analyze them objectively and stay focused.

Consider the following:

1) We have no results yet:

a) We have no authority to draw conclusions at this point.

2) If Panasonic reports around 750lp/ph:

a) At what camera and lens settings?
b) At what contrast ratio does this 750lp/ph occur?
- i) Is it safe to assume 30% contrast if not stated (Answer: Maybe)
c) Which chart has been used?
- Does anyone have access to this chart so we can repeat same test Panasonic did?

3) We need to calculate the MTF (Modulation Transfer Function) so that we can conclude repeatable results both accurately and objectively:

a) Anyone with a capable image editing program will be able to repeat this test.

4) We need to determine calculation errors:

a) Are the results over or under estimates?
- i) Can we tell by how much?
b) What are the sources for errors?
- i) We could repeat the tests after correcting errors to obtain more accurate results.

The MTF is not difficult to compute. If anyone is curious as to "What the heck is MTF?", see this link: http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html
It is somewhat technical, as it should be, but it gives you a general and more specific idea that introduces this tool.

Cheers!
Bob

Petr Marusek · January 5th, 2006, 12:28 PM

Actually all we need is for Kaku to focus it correctly, have it lighted properly and make sure the whites is white or near white. We are not comparing to any Panasonic tests, or veryfying Panasonic's tests. I've never seen the Panasonic produced charts. We are comparing to charts we have on H1, Z1, HD100, etc., which may not have bewen taken under ideal contrast condition either, or the chart does not fit the frame fully, but the information is sufficient to compensate for any defficiencies and draw conclusions.

Kaku is already going overboard by having the chart printed at 3,000 dpi, when 300 would have been more than enough. He will apparently test it at various focal lengths and F-stops, which is extremely important.

Robert Graf · January 5th, 2006, 12:35 PM

Hi Petr,

That will work for the most part, but if anyone is going to quantify any certain number of resolution, such as 750lp/ph (or even a range of numbers for that matter), then the analysis needs to be done. Lack of that, we should be able to eyeball the charts from various cameras to gain a general idea about resolution.

Bob

John Jay · January 5th, 2006, 03:28 PM

Hello Kaku

when you perform the test, I especially would like to see the result with a 'pure green filter' fitted to the HVX200 and the colour turned down

this should tell us what the native resolution of the green CCD is, and consequently how much interlaced resolution is via pixel shift

thanks

Petr Marusek · January 5th, 2006, 03:43 PM

If you want to see how much is the pixel shift contributing to resolution, IMHO you need to run the following test:

Turn down red and blue totally. Have the camera see green only.

I think that this is not important though. What is important is how the camera performs, not how it achieves its performance.

John Jay · January 5th, 2006, 04:00 PM

The camera has no facility to turn down blue and red totally/independently

Only reducing colour gain/saturation can achieve this.

The external green filter is important to combat the gain applied via pixel shift

The resolution of the green sensor will be of particular importance for those wishing to make HD productions with a Matrix/Amelie colour timing.

Kaku Ito · January 5th, 2006, 05:51 PM

I'm back on the ichat.

Les Dit · January 6th, 2006, 01:51 AM

Kaku,
Thanks for shooting the chart.

Can someone post a still image from it , in jpeg100% or LZ tiff ?
I'm a PC user, I can't seem to view the Qt 'stills?' .
That would only be a few meg.

Thanks!
-Les

Jung Kyu · January 6th, 2006, 02:08 AM

i just read article about new sanyo hd1..camera.. it works ilke hvx. it's 5mega pix..it should look like film.. it's coming out on march $799

it's supports SD memory card and USB 2.0..very cool.

http://www.livingroom.org.au/photolo..._xacti_hd1.php

Les Dit · January 6th, 2006, 02:16 AM

Ya,
I think it SHOULD look like film too.
And I can use it as a key chain as well. Cool.

Seriously, I've seen the 'DVD' output from the old version of this cam, it was poor quality.
-Les

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jung Kyu

i just read article about new sanyo hd1..camera.. it works ilke hvx. it's 5mega pix..it should look like film.. it's coming out on march $799

it's supports SD memory card and USB 2.0..very cool.

http://www.livingroom.org.au/photolo..._xacti_hd1.php

Jung Kyu · January 6th, 2006, 02:28 AM

here;s more info about hd1

http://www.sanyodigital.com/HD1/features.html

http://www.sanyodigital.com/interactive_demos.html

i might sell my hc1..to buy this..hd1 bit rate is 9mb..it's enough bit rate for 720p and mpeg4 codec is better than mepg2.. sounds too good for $800

Rob McCardle · January 6th, 2006, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jung Kyu

here;s more info about hd1

http://www.sanyodigital.com/HD1/features.html

http://www.sanyodigital.com/interactive_demos.html

i might sell my hc1..to buy this..hd1 bit rate is 9mb..it's enough bit rate for 720p and mpeg4 codec is better than mepg2.. sounds too good for $800

This looks like smoke and mirrors. C'mon ...

ot - gotta be.

January 5th, 2006, 12:09 PM	#34
Robert Graf Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 40	We are all excited to see the results when they come in, but we need to analyze them objectively and stay focused. Consider the following: 1) We have no results yet: a) We have no authority to draw conclusions at this point. 2) If Panasonic reports around 750lp/ph: a) At what camera and lens settings? b) At what contrast ratio does this 750lp/ph occur? i) Is it safe to assume 30% contrast if not stated (Answer: Maybe) c) Which chart has been used? Does anyone have access to this chart so we can repeat same test Panasonic did? 3) We need to calculate the MTF (Modulation Transfer Function) so that we can conclude repeatable results both accurately and objectively: a) Anyone with a capable image editing program will be able to repeat this test. 4) We need to determine calculation errors: a) Are the results over or under estimates? i) Can we tell by how much? b) What are the sources for errors? i) We could repeat the tests after correcting errors to obtain more accurate results. The MTF is not difficult to compute. If anyone is curious as to "What the heck is MTF?", see this link: http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html It is somewhat technical, as it should be, but it gives you a general and more specific idea that introduces this tool. Cheers! Bob

January 5th, 2006, 03:28 PM	#37
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	GO Green GO Hello Kaku when you perform the test, I especially would like to see the result with a 'pure green filter' fitted to the HVX200 and the colour turned down this should tell us what the native resolution of the green CCD is, and consequently how much interlaced resolution is via pixel shift thanks __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

January 5th, 2006, 04:00 PM	#39
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	The camera has no facility to turn down blue and red totally/independently Only reducing colour gain/saturation can achieve this. The external green filter is important to combat the gain applied via pixel shift The resolution of the green sensor will be of particular importance for those wishing to make HD productions with a Matrix/Amelie colour timing. __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

January 6th, 2006, 01:51 AM	#41
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Kaku, Thanks for shooting the chart. Can someone post a still image from it , in jpeg100% or LZ tiff ? I'm a PC user, I can't seem to view the Qt 'stills?' . That would only be a few meg. Thanks! -Les Last edited by Les Dit; January 6th, 2006 at 02:34 AM.

January 6th, 2006, 02:08 AM	#42
Jung Kyu Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 143	.. i just read article about new sanyo hd1..camera.. it works ilke hvx. it's 5mega pix..it should look like film.. it's coming out on march $799 it's supports SD memory card and USB 2.0..very cool. http://www.livingroom.org.au/photolo..._xacti_hd1.php

January 5th, 2006, 11:35 AM	#32
Petr Marusek Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 155	Kaku, just post some frame grabs and let us analyze it. I don't believe that the resolution is this low. You are probably not reading the chart correctly. You should have plenty of light and the chart should be costrasty; that means that white should be white or nearly white. The chart should be 16x9 and the arrows should touch the edge of the screen. If they don't, it's fine too. We'll factor it in. I've read plenty of resolution charts. It's easy to determine the resolution. If you want me to read the charts privately first, I can give you my email address.

January 5th, 2006, 11:37 AM	#33
Alex Melia New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 13	Man, Shannon, are you tiresome... enjoy your canon and let us live

January 5th, 2006, 12:28 PM	#35
Petr Marusek Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 155	Actually all we need is for Kaku to focus it correctly, have it lighted properly and make sure the whites is white or near white. We are not comparing to any Panasonic tests, or veryfying Panasonic's tests. I've never seen the Panasonic produced charts. We are comparing to charts we have on H1, Z1, HD100, etc., which may not have bewen taken under ideal contrast condition either, or the chart does not fit the frame fully, but the information is sufficient to compensate for any defficiencies and draw conclusions. Kaku is already going overboard by having the chart printed at 3,000 dpi, when 300 would have been more than enough. He will apparently test it at various focal lengths and F-stops, which is extremely important.

January 5th, 2006, 12:35 PM	#36
Robert Graf Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 40	Hi Petr, That will work for the most part, but if anyone is going to quantify any certain number of resolution, such as 750lp/ph (or even a range of numbers for that matter), then the analysis needs to be done. Lack of that, we should be able to eyeball the charts from various cameras to gain a general idea about resolution. Bob

January 5th, 2006, 03:43 PM	#38
Petr Marusek Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 155	If you want to see how much is the pixel shift contributing to resolution, IMHO you need to run the following test: Turn down red and blue totally. Have the camera see green only. I think that this is not important though. What is important is how the camera performs, not how it achieves its performance.

January 5th, 2006, 05:51 PM	#40
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	I'm back on the ichat.

January 6th, 2006, 02:28 AM	#44
Jung Kyu Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 143	.. here;s more info about hd1 http://www.sanyodigital.com/HD1/features.html http://www.sanyodigital.com/interactive_demos.html i might sell my hc1..to buy this..hd1 bit rate is 9mb..it's enough bit rate for 720p and mpeg4 codec is better than mepg2.. sounds too good for $800