Who dropped the ball???

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Andrae Palmer

Why buy the camera? Weird position to be in... buying a Camera that's not supported on any of the computers that you would like to edit on.

The only other camera within my price range that fits my needs is the XLH1. But the HVX200 also offers variable frame rates and a tapeless workflow as well as what should be a superior means of video capture (DVCPROHD vs. HDV). As has been hashed over in other threads, to gear up with an HVX200 plus new NLE software and a few P2 cards should be about the same as an XLH1 setup. I guess the extra $$$ for the Mac to run the new NLE software on and gain the framerate and DVCPROHD advantages would be worth it to me...

[Jan Crittenden Livingston]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

The trick is... How to get these native frame rate clips into the NLE? DV Film Maker doesn't like the MXF files flagged other than 24, 30 or 60p. Neither does Edius or Avid. Therefore we can only import 720pn if it's in 24, 30 or 60p.

Just to be clear Jeff, what I said was to shoot in the PN modes and then just import that file. And what you are saying is that it does not work?

Please asnswer asap, I have a call into my guy at Avid.

Thanks,

Jan

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

The current MacOS has plenty of its own shortcomings and is, at its heart, a BSD implementation with a candy-colored condom stretched over it. Sorry for the crude analogy, but hey that's what it is.

So strange you would say this. I'm in India and when I saw a CRT today my reaction was what a "clean interface!" Then I noted the little colored Apple in the upper-left corner and realized I was seeing information not obscured by a "condom." It felt good!

I bought a hot PC last year because of all the options for HDV support. Now it looks like I'll need to upgrade my Mac because of FCP and its DVCPRO codecs. I'm not sure these are only temp issues -- all to be solved by NAB 2006.

I'm afraid we are going to see an increase in the use of "alliences" to levergage mutual sales. I to have to buy a Sony deck to play 1080i "HDV" and a BR to view Sony movies, while having to buy a JVC deck for 720p "HDV," and a Toshiba HD DVD to view a TW movie. (OT2: TWC just turned-off the ability to record HD on JVC D-VHS decks via FW.) If I buy an hp computer will it be able to play an HDCAM or BR disc? If I buy a hot Apple Intel iBook, where do I plug in a P2 card? Lastly, the new iPod drops Firewire in favor of Intel's USB. I don't know how a small post house -- or consumers -- can deal with this level of deliberate fragmentation. Will we all need 2 kinds of HD DVD burners?

Lastly, lest we forget, Panasonic has publically (NAB 2004) announced that they will release MPEG-2 based, low-cost HD camcorders -- which makes far, far more sense for P2. All they need is a low-power 720p60/1080i MPRG-2 encoder. (It wasn't ready, so they switched, at NAB 2005, plans and went with DVCPRO HD.) So by the time DVCPRO HD is fully supported -- end of 2006? -- we may only be months away from a whole new line P2 HD products that will be significantly more media efficient. And, a whole new cycle of NLE non-support.

Happy New Year!

[David Saraceno]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

The current MacOS has plenty of its own shortcomings and is, at its heart, a BSD implementation with a candy-colored condom stretched over it. Sorry for the crude analogy, but hey that's what it is.

Interesting comment.

Note: http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/...yawards_1.html

2006 Technology Awards

"Best Client Operating System
Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger
A rich and friendly desktop OS built with professional users in mind"

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston

Just to be clear Jeff, what I said was to shoot in the PN modes and then just import that file. And what you are saying is that it does not work?

Please asnswer asap, I have a call into my guy at Avid.

Thanks,

Jan

Jan,

I'm only basing all this off the limited amount of footage available right now. I don't own Avid, but have been investigating Xpress Pro HD as a possible platform to migrate to as I currently use Vegas. I have spent some time over the past week with a local dealer, trying various NLE systems with the limited amount of HVX200 clips that are available online. What I have found with Avid (and this seems to be confirmed by other Avid users here and on dvxuser.com) is the following:

1. Can not get a 720pn clip shot at 12fps to import. I don't have the exact error message in front of me, but it was essentially an unsupported framerate or unsupported data rate type message. This clip will also not load into DV Film Maker, which according to Barry Green, does support all the various frame rates. There may be a problem with this MXF file.

2. DVCPROHD @ 1080 does not import at all intoXpress Pro if it's wrapped as an Apple QT (this is may be a QT compatibility issue, 720p QT works fine). If being imported from the native MXF, Avid wants to insist that it's Sony's MXF for XDCAM and not DVCPROHD. It took some fiddling around and one of the guys at the local shop I'm working with finally got the 1080i clip to load - I think he had to manually remove codec support from the system and essentially eliminate anything related to Sony MXF and/or XDCAM. Another system had the same issue and I've seen at least one other user on dvxuser.com report the same issue.

Once the clips are loaded into Avid (720 or 1080), the performance is absolutely horrid! On a dual-core PentiumD (3.2GHz, I believe) with 2GB RAM and 4x320GB SATA-II drives in a RAID-0 config, we were only able to run 4 ~ 5 frames/sec with a single stream. Converting to Avid's QNxHD allowed us to run multiple streams simultaneously. Avid obviously needs to do some serious work with their DV100 codec. Results were the same on a secondary edit system and others have reported the same performance issues.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by David Saraceno

Interesting comment.

Note: http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/...yawards_1.html

2006 Technology Awards

"Best Client Operating System
Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger
A rich and friendly desktop OS built with professional users in mind"

Once again, I'm not trying to get into a platform war, and product awards are irrelevent here. I realize that many users don't like reading anything about a Mac unless it's overzealous laudation. But hey, I wasn't saying anything negative about the platform - read my posts - I'm thinking of dropping $5K+ to buy one. And my comment/analogy still stands. The MacOS is an implementation of BSD (a unix derivative with roots similar to linux, for those who don't know). And it has a candy-coating applied to make it user friendly... It's a very nice candy coating and this is what wins all the awards.

Apple OSX - it's BSD - it's friendly. It's easy enough for novice computer users to actually be productive with and it still lets most advanced users dig into the inner workings of their system. But with the simplicity does come trade-offs. If I want the ultimate in control and flexibility to hook up with any sort of network, I'll still take Windows or Linux over OSX. Right tool for the job, ya know. Besides, we all know that PCs are thw whores of the computer world -- they'll hook up with anything.

[Robert Mann Z.]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

...Edius Broadcast (or Edius HD, NX w/HD, etc..) don't support all the available frame rates with 720p, only 24, 30 & 60 fps. 1080 is only supported as interlace and at 59.94, 60i or 50i....

well for one thing edius does support 1080/30p so i wonder what version of edius you were using...

as for varicam available framerates you can shoot at any rate you want, but the end result will always be 60 frames every second, the varicam shoots to tape...as for the hvx the only times it writes true frames is in 720p mode 24pn/30pn, which Edius offers...

what version of edius where you using???

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Robert Mann Z.

well for one thing edius does support 1080/30p so i wonder what version of edius you were using...

as for varicam available framerates you can shoot at any rate you want, but the end result will always be 60 frames every second, the varicam shoots to tape...as for the hvx the only times it writes true frames is in 720p mode 24pn/30pn, which Edius offers...

what version of edius where you using???

Er... Edius Pro3 with the Varicam add-on. Working with Edius at the dealer's shop, I didn't see any option for 1080p, but I may have missed it. There's no option for 1080p anything in the copy of Edius Pro3 that I downloaded about 2 weeks ago either - perhaps you can tell me what I'm doing wrong then? Of all the NLE options I've taken for a test drive thus far, I have spent the least amount of time with Edius -- it just doesn't do a lot of what I want/need. Maybe v4 will get a lot of the features that are rumored to be coming.

I'm aware the Varicam shoots to tape and that all its rates are transferred over 60p. I thought I addressed that in my original post - oh, well. That's beside the point. My comment on Edius and support for these frame rates is that we're limited to working in rates that Edius supports as standard. Sure, we can shoot 48fps over 60p and that's great if I want that effect on a 60p timeline... But what if I want to shoot 18pn and edit in 18pn and deliver in 18pn? Sounds weird, I know, but I actually have an application for this if I can do it. Avid (somewhat), FCP, Vegas (alas no DVCPRO support) all let me work with frame rates the way I want or very close to it, Edius doesn't directly -- too many work arounds and extra steps/conversions to get there. If I'm editing only for broadcast or DVD distribution, then I guess it wouldn't be bad, but I'm buying the HVX200 so I can make serious use of the frame rate options for effects work and reference for animation and I can think of situations where I would want to author a 36 or 48 or 12 or 18 fps reference file for use on other workstations.

Granted this is all relatively new territory for a lot of NLE systems and it will take time for it to mature. But when my HVX arrives, I will go to whichever system gives me the most abilities to do what I ultimately want to do.

[Robert Mann Z.]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

But what if I want to shoot 18pn and edit in 18pn and deliver in 18pn? .

what dvcpro camera shoots 18pn?
hvx is only 24pn/30pn no matter what frame rate you choose

in pro3.61 to get the 1080p mode just go to project settings/
framerate -> all
frame size - > hd

edius is not the best nle far from it, but it has the best implementation of dvcpro hd and Canopus has not dropped the ball when it came to that...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Robert Mann Z.

what dvcpro camera shoots 18pn?
hvx is only 24pn/30pn no matter what frame rate you choose

Really? I thought the HVX would store native frames for any of its frame rates when recording 720p to P2. Firewire out is always 720p60, IIRC. I guess I misinterpreted something somewhere. If it's only 24pn, 30pn and 60p and all other rates are carried over 60p and possibly 24p/30p where applicable, then that's still no big deal. It would be nice if Edius had support for non-standard and/or custom frame rates though. Maybe I'm just used to Vegas having these features and I need to face the reality that I may now have to live without. Lower rates like 12 and 18fps are excellent for creating web broadcasts.

in pro3.61 to get the 1080p mode just go to project settings/
framerate -> all
frame size - > hd

No 1080p anything here in the demo version, but it also doesn't include DVCPROHD support, just SD/DV and HDV 720p/1080i. At the dealer's shop, they had the Varicam pack and extra codec pack installed (what the Edius Broadcast bundle now is) and there was no 1080p options in the project settings on their system either. I'll take another look tomorrow as I'm meeting with them again with some new MXF archives to play with and we're going to try a few things again.

edius is not the best nle far from it, but it has the best implementation of dvcpro hd and Canopus has not dropped the ball when it came to that...

Yes, Canopus has great MXF support and I've been really impressed with their real-time performance of both SD and DVCPROHD content and how they mix on the timeline. But Edius is lacking too many other options... For now it actually makes more sense for me to use DV Film Maker and just dump the MXFs out to uncompressed frames or Cineform and edit with that in Vegas. It will be slower and a bit klunky and somewhat stupid considering the workflow possibilities of the HVX200. But Edius just lacks too much to go that route. If I go to Avid, I wouldn't be gaining anything either since Avid's DVCPROHD support is buggy and nowhere near real-time. So once again, I'm still transcoding the video before I can work with it. So for now, I either put up with a brain-damaging workflow and keep Vegas and Fusion or I buy a Mac and go to FCS+Shake. The Mac isn't anywhere near perfect either, but the extra cost of investment may be worth my sanity in the end.

[Robert Mann Z.]

i started using edius since version one to cut our daily interviews, it works great and has come along way, and one day it may be our sole editor again, but as for right now fcp looks like a winner even with the clumsy mxf suport...

even staying with vegas makes sense, good luck

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

Really? I thought the HVX would store native frames for any of its frame rates when recording 720p to P2.

It does. It flags the frames for playback at a certain timebase (either 24 or 30) but it stores only the frames that it needs. When you record 18 frames per second, it stores 18 frames per second on the card. The system is instructed to play them back at a 24fps or 30fps rate, whichever you chose (i.e., 720/24pN mode or 720/30pN mode); I'm pretty sure Graeme could whip up a frame-rate-conforming program in about three seconds that would let it be tagged as actual 18fps video though. Heck, maybe Cinema Tools can already do that?