Who dropped the ball???

Andrae Palmer · January 2nd, 2006, 02:44 PM

Seems like alot of people are looking at the Quad. Heck even my diehard PC using next door neighbor wants one now. It's hard to knock a computer that is fast and got good software. Faced with the PC NLE problem... well now that gives people the necessary justification to switch camps... if they can afford it.

Jeff Kilgroe · January 2nd, 2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Apple Final Cut Pro 4.5 supported DVCProHD when it was released in April 2004 and was a FREE update to those who had FCP 4.1. That was 20 months ago! With FCP5 Apple added native HDV support.

You can blame Panasonic or you can get a system from a company that tries to keep up. I used Avids from 1990 to 2002 (both Mac and later Windows) and switched to FCP. Avid, whether Mac or Windows based wants to make money through expensive upgrades. Apple's FCP is scalable.

Yeah, when I started this thread I didn't want to point a finger at Panasonic. I don't know they licensing issues (if any) related to DVCPRO[HD], but they can't be all bad. Apple incorporated DVCPRO just as if it were another codec to support (which it is), no big deal. Edius supports it rather will, I will give them that, they just don't have all the other bells and whistles in their NLE to really take advantage of the HVX200 or do the kind of creative editing that a lot of us like to do. But Edius is great for quick edits and broadcast work. Avid... What a joke and look at the price. Whooowee! I like Avid's workflow and interface/features, but after playing with Xpress, I'm not exactly impressed. I've paid lots of money in the past to essentially beta-test incomplete software and I'm not about to do it again with Avid just so I can have a half-baked edit solution for the HVX.

IMO, Panasonic maybe could have pushed a little more to get their codec implemented by some NLE authors. But in the end, it's the software developers that make those decisions and with the amount of buzz over this camera for the past year or so, I'm in shock that Avid's support is so incomplete and Adobe has yet to stand up and be counted. Even with Vegas I'm surprised... Vegas had 24pa support for the DVX100 implemented before the camera officially started shipping, at least that's what I remember. I was near the top of the DVX100 list at B&H and received mine less than a week after official ship date and was editing 24pa the first day.

Anyway, I'm not platform loyal and I will go to whatever tools let me get the job done. I have to go buy a new wireless access point this afternoon and if they have a G5 quad in stock with the 7800 or FX4500 video card, I may just go ahead and buy it and quit all the whining. It'll probably work out for the best in the end. That way, I can get FCP Studio up and running and Shake as well and maybe get the apps somewhat figured in my head by the time my HVX shows up.... Hopefully in the next 2~3 weeks.

Jeff Kilgroe · January 2nd, 2006, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrae Palmer

if they can afford it.

It's a tough nut to swallow if you've already invested in recent PC hardware and software. I've several systems here ranging from a dual AMD 1.2GHz on the low end to a quad-Opteron (8 cores!) @ 2.6GHz on the high end (render nodes). and several in between and one Mac too. I don't need another computer, don't really want another computer. I don't mind couging up some more money for NLE software - FCP Studio is very reasonably priced for what you get. I'm just choking on the $5K I'll probably spend on the G5 box itself... Sure, I could go with a lesser Mac, even a G5 iMac. But I want the thing to scream... I want it to run like my killer PC systems run... Apparently, I don't mind being broke either. hehe.

Kevin Shaw · January 2nd, 2006, 03:49 PM

If I understand correctly, even Apple's implementation of support for the HVX200 leaves something to be desired, so what does that tell us? Maybe it actually takes time to fully incorporate support for a radical new camera with a lot of different recording modes and a special data wrapper, and that shouldn't be a big surprise to people. And if Panasonic has been charging big bucks to work with them on developing DVCProHD support, that just makes it all the more understandable why support is lagging.

I wonder which will happen first: Apple doing something about their need to "unwrap" HVX200 files before editing, or Canopus/Thompson improving their support for various frame rates? Don't be too sure that Apple will be the first or only company to figure all this out...

Barry Green · January 2nd, 2006, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

I was hoping that Panasonic would also include a utility to unwrap the MXF files for DVCPRO50 and 100 so I can use the files in Vegas using the MainConcept DVCPRO50 support and/or AVID's DVCPRO100 (although AVID's DV100 codec is real SLOW, lucky to get 3-4 fps)

That utility exists, but it's from DVFilm.com, called "Maker". It unwraps the MXF and rewraps it as a quicktime, or as an .AVI if you don't mind recompressing.

Doesn't currently support DV50 though.

MainConcept has a DVCPRO50 codec available, but it costs. You can get a free one from Matrox.

Barry Green · January 2nd, 2006, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

DV Film Maker doesn't like the MXF files flagged other than 24, 30 or 60p.

Incorrect. DVFilm Maker works with all the frame rates now. That's how I was able to import and edit the frame rate article and demonstrate all the frame rates in all the different timebases.

Paul Farmer · January 2nd, 2006, 04:28 PM

After much, and I mean MUCH, research on this very question (on this board and others) I went with a PowerMac G5 with 4x1 GB Ram and FCP 5 (.04). Apple is indeed ahead of the curve . . . and will hopefully stay there. PC will always be playing catch up if history is any indicator.

Steven Thomas · January 2nd, 2006, 04:34 PM

Barry,
If I use MainConcept's DVCPRO50, what do I need to do to get the raw P2 files to work within Vegas? What else will I need?

thxs,
Steve

Bill Southworth · January 2nd, 2006, 06:25 PM

Jeff -

Really when you consider the cost of camera, P2 cards, etc. the cost of a laptop is a pretty negligble part. I use both PCs and Macs and, I take exception with a couple of your points. Beneath the hood, OS X is clearly a more modern, flexible operating system than Windows of any flavor. Also, using both, I reboot the PC once a day and the Mac once every month or so. Am I paying a hardware premium for the Mac? Sure. So what. Is there faster PC hardware? Maybe. So what. I was also a Premiere fan and switched when Adobe didn't keep pace with FCP. I use Photoshop extensively and would use it on whatever platform I needed to use. If Apple gets there act together with Aperture, who knows, I may switch there too.

Platform flaming is last century. Think solution and use whatever works best for the problem at hand.

I'm #2 on my dealer's list for the HVX and I'm hoping to get it next week. I'll also be an early adopter of an Ap-tel laptop when Apple releases a dual core Yonah-based Powerbook. It's a grand time to be doing video.

Bill Sepaniak · January 2nd, 2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

I'm just choking on the $5K I'll probably spend on the G5 box itself...

Jeff: If it helps, Amazon has a $200.00 rebate coupon on G5 Quads. It brings the price down to $3,099.00 (with the GeForce 6600 and 512 mb of ram). See:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...57638?n=541966

Jeff Kilgroe · January 2nd, 2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Southworth

Really when you consider the cost of camera, P2 cards, etc. the cost of a laptop is a pretty negligble part.

Yep... The new system cost is negligible for sure. I'll probably spring for the G5 Quad with a KONA LHe or KONA2 card. I almost bought the G5 box today, I fought the impulse. :) Actually, I would have bought it, but they only had the systems equipped with the GeForce 6600 and I'd prefer the 7800GT model... I don't know the full extent of what I'll end up using the Mac for beyond video editing/compositing and DVD authoring, but I do want to keep it on par with my Windows workstations in terms of most of the hardware specs. I'd consider the Quadro FX4500, but IMO this is too overpriced... Quadro cards are overpriced in the PC world and we're paying another 20% premium for the EXACT SAME CARD in the Mac world when its supplied with the system.

Quote:

I use both PCs and Macs and, I take exception with a couple of your points. Beneath the hood, OS X is clearly a more modern, flexible operating system than Windows of any flavor.

I wasn't aware I was flaming the Mac platform... I've seen a few other such comments here. I suppose I did have a tone of sarcasm in my original post that could have been misunderstood, but hey. I already own a Mac - a dual 867MHz G4 running OSX. I come from a very diverse computing background and have extensive experience with most every flavor of unix that has come along as well as the various PC OS's - DOS, OS/2, Be, Windows, etc.. The current MacOS has plenty of its own shortcomings and is, at its heart, a BSD implementation with a candy-colored condom stretched over it. Sorry for the crude analogy, but hey that's what it is. Unix/BSD and MacOS has plenty of characteristics that are outdated or stone-dead in many respects. But I can say the same for Windows... You reboot your PC once a day? Throw that P.O.S. away... My PCs easily go weeks on end without rebooting. A lot of people don't believe me, but I build them all myself and take care to make sure everything is compatible and I'm picky about the software I install.

Seriously though, I'm not trying to have a platform war, although it seems a few others have tried to steer this thread in that direction. I was simply venting my frustrations that PC software vendors have pulled up lame on this one and thus are forcing me to either shift more of my workflow over to the Mac or wait to adopt the HVX200 until they get their asses in gear and deliver a competent NLE solution.

I've spent a lot a time playing with NLE systems over the past several days using all of Kaku's footage (once gain, Kaku - you da man!). FCP is by no means perfect and I can list a few gripes about it (like Apple's insistance on diverting most everything through QuickTime and simply tossing away the benefits of MXF containers). But as of this moment, FCP is the best (and IMO, the only) real-world solution for working with the HVX200. That and if I switch, I also get more icing on my cake... I get DVD Studio Pro, which is by far better than anything on the PC unless I want to cough up $5K for Scenarist. And I can move my compositing over to Shake. I use Fusion right now, but the upgrade to the new version of Fusion will cost me about as much as buying Shake, which will do nearly everything Fusion will -- and Shake will do more than what my current version of Fusion does, so either way, I should upgrade.

Anyway, as I've said in this thread several times... I'm not loyal to either platform. My current workflow just happens to be PC based for the most part. And from where I stand, if Apple has the products I need when my HVX200 arrives, then they get my money and I will use those products until something better comes along.

Steven Thomas · January 2nd, 2006, 09:18 PM

Well put Jeff!

I take we won't find AOL on your computers! :)

I'm on the fence right now and don't want to add the additional cost if not needed. I believe I'm not the only one.

Thanks man,
Steve

Jeff Kilgroe · January 2nd, 2006, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

Well put Jeff!

I take we won't find AOL on your computers! :)

I'm on the fence right now and don't want to add the additional cost if not needed. I believe I'm not the only one.

Thanks man,
Steve

No AOL here... That trash has no place on a decent computer.

I don't think any of us want the additional cost of a new system and software to deal with. I'm going to wait until my HVX is close to being delivered before I take the plunge. I'll hopefully wait until NAB and see what's coming down the pipe. Although, most NAB announcements are for future products and I can't wait another 6+ months for something to materialize. And comparing my current options... I think the only way I'd stay with a PC NLE solution at this point is if Sony suddenly announced full DVCPROHD and MXF support for Vegas to be released sometime by the end of February.

Andrae Palmer · January 2nd, 2006, 10:04 PM

Why buy the camera? Weird position to be in... buying a Camera that's not supported on any of the computers that you would like to edit on.

Steven Thomas · January 2nd, 2006, 10:49 PM

I hear you Andrae, but....

I just starting to get into HD and can always use the HVX200's SD until better DVCPRO-HD support arrives for the PC.

Not to mention, I am not interested in HDV.

Steve

January 2nd, 2006, 04:28 PM	#37
Paul Farmer New Boot Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 9	Mac G5 4ME After much, and I mean MUCH, research on this very question (on this board and others) I went with a PowerMac G5 with 4x1 GB Ram and FCP 5 (.04). Apple is indeed ahead of the curve . . . and will hopefully stay there. PC will always be playing catch up if history is any indicator.

January 2nd, 2006, 06:25 PM	#39
Bill Southworth Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 37	Mac, PC, whatever... Jeff - Really when you consider the cost of camera, P2 cards, etc. the cost of a laptop is a pretty negligble part. I use both PCs and Macs and, I take exception with a couple of your points. Beneath the hood, OS X is clearly a more modern, flexible operating system than Windows of any flavor. Also, using both, I reboot the PC once a day and the Mac once every month or so. Am I paying a hardware premium for the Mac? Sure. So what. Is there faster PC hardware? Maybe. So what. I was also a Premiere fan and switched when Adobe didn't keep pace with FCP. I use Photoshop extensively and would use it on whatever platform I needed to use. If Apple gets there act together with Aperture, who knows, I may switch there too. Platform flaming is last century. Think solution and use whatever works best for the problem at hand. I'm #2 on my dealer's list for the HVX and I'm hoping to get it next week. I'll also be an early adopter of an Ap-tel laptop when Apple releases a dual core Yonah-based Powerbook. It's a grand time to be doing video.

January 2nd, 2006, 02:44 PM	#31
Andrae Palmer Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Posts: 59	Seems like alot of people are looking at the Quad. Heck even my diehard PC using next door neighbor wants one now. It's hard to knock a computer that is fast and got good software. Faced with the PC NLE problem... well now that gives people the necessary justification to switch camps... if they can afford it.

January 2nd, 2006, 03:49 PM	#34
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	If I understand correctly, even Apple's implementation of support for the HVX200 leaves something to be desired, so what does that tell us? Maybe it actually takes time to fully incorporate support for a radical new camera with a lot of different recording modes and a special data wrapper, and that shouldn't be a big surprise to people. And if Panasonic has been charging big bucks to work with them on developing DVCProHD support, that just makes it all the more understandable why support is lagging. I wonder which will happen first: Apple doing something about their need to "unwrap" HVX200 files before editing, or Canopus/Thompson improving their support for various frame rates? Don't be too sure that Apple will be the first or only company to figure all this out...

January 2nd, 2006, 04:34 PM	#38
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Barry, If I use MainConcept's DVCPRO50, what do I need to do to get the raw P2 files to work within Vegas? What else will I need? thxs, Steve

January 2nd, 2006, 09:18 PM	#42
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Well put Jeff! I take we won't find AOL on your computers! :) I'm on the fence right now and don't want to add the additional cost if not needed. I believe I'm not the only one. Thanks man, Steve

January 2nd, 2006, 10:04 PM	#44
Andrae Palmer Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Posts: 59	Why buy the camera? Weird position to be in... buying a Camera that's not supported on any of the computers that you would like to edit on.

January 2nd, 2006, 10:49 PM	#45
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	I hear you Andrae, but.... I just starting to get into HD and can always use the HVX200's SD until better DVCPRO-HD support arrives for the PC. Not to mention, I am not interested in HDV. Steve