HDTV proliferation

Ash Greyson · December 29th, 2005, 04:41 AM

Actually this thread was about the proliferation of HDTV sets... The point that others and myself were making is that proliferation is the wrong word.

As to SD vs HD... you dont have to make a choice. I work in both. I have current projects shot on a Varicam and projects shot on an SDX900... I even have projects shot on XL2 and DVX's. I think that what sets myself and other off is the lack of objectivity when considering the average consumer who will ultimately decide when HDTV takes off. I think acquisition in HD is VERY viable and growing steadily, I just get set off by people using words like "dead" and "obsolete" especially people thinking their $3000 HDV camera has somehow made a DigiBeta Cam or an SDX900 useless...

ash =o)

Kevin Shaw · December 31st, 2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

I just get set off by people using words like "dead" and "obsolete" especially people thinking their $3000 HDV camera has somehow made a DigiBeta Cam or an SDX900 useless...

It's not that it makes those cameras useless, it just shows the direction everything is headed. At some point it seems inevitable that anyone spending any real money for video production will simply expect it to be shot in HD, and at that point good SD cameras could become expensive doorstops. Not today obviously, and maybe not for a few more years yet, but it's coming.

Paul Matwiy · January 1st, 2006, 01:26 PM

The rise in the sales of HD sets is actually fueled by the wide acceptance of the DVD. Widescreen DVDs appear to many consumers to be indistinguishable from HD. Once a consumer has a widescreen set (Plasma, LCD, or DMD/LCoS), they will begin to seek out additional widescreen material. HD content has the best chance of grabbing them and keeping them.

Mike Morrell · January 2nd, 2006, 08:56 PM

Tonight, I have seen at least 3 HD commercials air. The first one I saw was when I was flipping channels and started watching the Knicks game on INHD1. I think the feed was from MSG network. Typically, INHD shows no commercials, but on some feeds from providers, they come through. One was for Geico. I'm really not 100% positive it was HD, but it was widescreen and it looked great and it did not look stretched. There was another one following this one. This looked to be locally produced and did not look so hot. It could have been SD uprezzed.

But later and almost simultaneously, both FOX TV and ABC TV showed a gorgeous HD commercial touting some merger with SBC or something. It was very well produced, was full widescreen and was definitely not stretched and really looked great. And the first time I saw it was on a repeat version of "House". Then I flipped back tot he Sugar Bowl and it was running again over there too.

If Barry's litmus test for HDTV production is when he starts seeing commercials in HD on broadcast TV, then so far 2006 is looking promising for HDTV proliferation.

------------

On a somewhat related note, I spoke with a producer friend of mine at a local news station here in Atlanta, not the one that is officially going to HD in February, and he said that they ran (he produced) their first HD news segment using a Varicam shot 24p 720p. They had to create two versions, SD and HD in order to air the HD and ran them simultaneously. This happened a couple of weeks ago and I did not see it. So I asked my local HDTV forum members if they say it and a couple did. One said that the footage looked horrible, it was green and had no detail. He said that when they went back to the studio that the studio looked much better.

And this brings me to the point that SD can look fantastic when up-converted to 720p like this local does. There local news is shot with SD cameras and it looks terrific in DTV, fantastic. I would really have a hard time discerning that it was not HD except that it is pillar boxed. So yes, absolutely, I $50,000 SD camera with studio lighting will end up looking at lot better than any $3000 HDV camera. There is no way that SD is "dead" and I think most of the production people here have said that in this thread. But more and more those of us who are not at least preparing for HD in our own market risk being left behind.

Being a PC guy and reading the threads about the lack of support for DVCPRO HD on the PC platform gets me worried now and I am not really ready to get a HVX even if I could. With the PC platform being as behind as it is, I might myself be left behind if I do not start getting a game plan together not only to upgrade my editing system, but to switch technologies entirely. How far might I be behind if do not start preparing soon. For anyone like myself, there is a lot to think about far in advance of widespread HD production to be prepared. But with the amount of content already being aired in HD and more and more being aired in each season, HD could filter down at even my level quicker than I might be ready for.

Mike Morrell · January 13th, 2006, 10:52 AM

"We expect more than half the ads to run in HD," says Ed Erhardt, ABC head of sports ad sales.

AB is running 5 minutes of HD ads during the SuperBowl alone.

Ash Greyson · January 13th, 2006, 03:55 PM

I am starting to see more commercials as well but we are still talking less then 1% even during HD shows add in all shows and it is minutia. Again, the driving factor for any and all tech is the economics. HD will take off when the sets cost the same as SD sets... Happened with CDs, when players and disks got down to at or near cassette costs... happened with DVD the same way. Nothing else matters, not quality, not content, nothing... only price.

ash =o)

Peter Wiley · January 13th, 2006, 06:03 PM

I saw an interview recently with some local Public TV station execs on the SD/HD issue. They suggested that the sets and program origination costs were nothing compared to the costs to equip their stations to broadcast HD -- the figure given was $10 million/station.

The point made in the interview was that in the smaller markets with several stations local adversting just is not going to cover the transition costs; e.g. $40 million in a market with 4 stations say. Of course there are some kinds of programming that only local stations are going to do and so SD may linger in small markets for some time.

Joe Womble · January 13th, 2006, 09:01 PM

Luckily, one of the network affiliates here in Atlanta is going to broadcast their news in HD soon. WXIA (NBC) has been splashing ads about it for a couple of weeks.

Don't know if it will be studio only (likely) or some live segments as well.

Regards,

Joe Womble

Evan C. King · January 14th, 2006, 04:03 AM

"A new survey from Panasonic shows that one in every four U. S. households either own or plan to own an HDTV set by the end of 2006"

I don't believe that stat at all. Because for that to be true almost all of those people would have to buy one in this year!

Kevin Shaw · January 14th, 2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Morrell

And this brings me to the point that SD can look fantastic when up-converted to 720p like this local does... I would really have a hard time discerning that it was not HD except that it is pillar boxed.

Aye, but there's the rub! When you spend thousands of dollars for an HDTV you'd prefer to get the best possible viewing experience you can, and there's simply no good way to convert 4x3 SD video to look good on a large widescreen HDTV. The change in viewing aspect ratio combined with the change in resolution is a death knell for all non-widescreen SD cameras, as you can see for yourself once you have a decent HDTV.

Quote:

So yes, absolutely, I $50,000 SD camera with studio lighting will end up looking at lot better than any $3000 HDV camera.

Sure, but it's noteworthy that we're even bothering to make that comparison! The Sony FX1 easily sets a new standard in image quality for $3000 video cameras, and at least in terms of resolution can challenge any SD camera at any price. That's revolutionary in a way which can't be ignored, and will inevitably lead to HD becoming standard for almost all professional videography within the next few years. SD may not be dead yet, but as someone else said it's definitely on life support.

Quote:

Being a PC guy and reading the threads about the lack of support for DVCPRO HD on the PC platform gets me worried now and I am not really ready to get a HVX even if I could.

The Caonpus Edius "Broadcast" software for $999 reportedly has better support for the P2 video format than Apple's mighty Final Cut Pro. Other PC editing applications will undoubtedly follow suit, just as Apple finally offered support for HDV almost a year after most PC applications did so. No need to change computer platforms to work with the HVX200, but depending on your particular requirements you may want to investigate Apple's solutions.

Mike Morrell · January 18th, 2006, 04:45 PM

[QUOTE=Kevin Shaw]Aye, but there's the rub! When you spend thousands of dollars for an HDTV you'd prefer to get the best possible viewing experience you can, and there's simply no good way to convert 4x3 SD video to look good on a large widescreen HDTV. The change in viewing aspect ratio combined with the change in resolution is a death knell for all non-widescreen SD cameras, as you can see for yourself once you have a decent HDTV.

I've got no less than 4 HDTV's and I can tell you that some SD broadcasts,such as WSB-TV news, although pillar boxed, do look fantastic. WTBS over the air looks pretty darn good too, like the best DVD progressive 480p movies look. My biggest TV is a 96" front projection. And you can see more of a difference on this TV than any of my smaller ones, but great up-converted SD, keeping the aspect ratio true, can look pretty darn good and much better than any OTA analog has ever looked. I also have a direct view CRT 32" HD TV, and while not to the $10,000+ plasma TV quality standard, it is at least another "decent" HDTV that I am watching. My others are flat panel LCD's and they are not as discerning.

Mind you, I am not arguing agaist HDTV in its full glory, but I thought that I would clalrify my position on good SD.

January 1st, 2006, 01:26 PM	#48
Paul Matwiy Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Marin, CA Posts: 85	The rise in the sales of HD sets is actually fueled by the wide acceptance of the DVD. Widescreen DVDs appear to many consumers to be indistinguishable from HD. Once a consumer has a widescreen set (Plasma, LCD, or DMD/LCoS), they will begin to seek out additional widescreen material. HD content has the best chance of grabbing them and keeping them. __________________ Paul

January 2nd, 2006, 08:56 PM	#49
Mike Morrell Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Norcross GA Posts: 119	More HD Commercials airing... Tonight, I have seen at least 3 HD commercials air. The first one I saw was when I was flipping channels and started watching the Knicks game on INHD1. I think the feed was from MSG network. Typically, INHD shows no commercials, but on some feeds from providers, they come through. One was for Geico. I'm really not 100% positive it was HD, but it was widescreen and it looked great and it did not look stretched. There was another one following this one. This looked to be locally produced and did not look so hot. It could have been SD uprezzed. But later and almost simultaneously, both FOX TV and ABC TV showed a gorgeous HD commercial touting some merger with SBC or something. It was very well produced, was full widescreen and was definitely not stretched and really looked great. And the first time I saw it was on a repeat version of "House". Then I flipped back tot he Sugar Bowl and it was running again over there too. If Barry's litmus test for HDTV production is when he starts seeing commercials in HD on broadcast TV, then so far 2006 is looking promising for HDTV proliferation. ------------ On a somewhat related note, I spoke with a producer friend of mine at a local news station here in Atlanta, not the one that is officially going to HD in February, and he said that they ran (he produced) their first HD news segment using a Varicam shot 24p 720p. They had to create two versions, SD and HD in order to air the HD and ran them simultaneously. This happened a couple of weeks ago and I did not see it. So I asked my local HDTV forum members if they say it and a couple did. One said that the footage looked horrible, it was green and had no detail. He said that when they went back to the studio that the studio looked much better. And this brings me to the point that SD can look fantastic when up-converted to 720p like this local does. There local news is shot with SD cameras and it looks terrific in DTV, fantastic. I would really have a hard time discerning that it was not HD except that it is pillar boxed. So yes, absolutely, I $50,000 SD camera with studio lighting will end up looking at lot better than any $3000 HDV camera. There is no way that SD is "dead" and I think most of the production people here have said that in this thread. But more and more those of us who are not at least preparing for HD in our own market risk being left behind. Being a PC guy and reading the threads about the lack of support for DVCPRO HD on the PC platform gets me worried now and I am not really ready to get a HVX even if I could. With the PC platform being as behind as it is, I might myself be left behind if I do not start getting a game plan together not only to upgrade my editing system, but to switch technologies entirely. How far might I be behind if do not start preparing soon. For anyone like myself, there is a lot to think about far in advance of widespread HD production to be prepared. But with the amount of content already being aired in HD and more and more being aired in each season, HD could filter down at even my level quicker than I might be ready for.

January 13th, 2006, 10:52 AM	#50
Mike Morrell Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Norcross GA Posts: 119	More HD spots then ever are running in this year's Superbowl "We expect more than half the ads to run in HD," says Ed Erhardt, ABC head of sports ad sales. AB is running 5 minutes of HD ads during the SuperBowl alone.

December 29th, 2005, 04:41 AM	#46
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Actually this thread was about the proliferation of HDTV sets... The point that others and myself were making is that proliferation is the wrong word. As to SD vs HD... you dont have to make a choice. I work in both. I have current projects shot on a Varicam and projects shot on an SDX900... I even have projects shot on XL2 and DVX's. I think that what sets myself and other off is the lack of objectivity when considering the average consumer who will ultimately decide when HDTV takes off. I think acquisition in HD is VERY viable and growing steadily, I just get set off by people using words like "dead" and "obsolete" especially people thinking their $3000 HDV camera has somehow made a DigiBeta Cam or an SDX900 useless... ash =o)

January 13th, 2006, 03:55 PM	#51
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	I am starting to see more commercials as well but we are still talking less then 1% even during HD shows add in all shows and it is minutia. Again, the driving factor for any and all tech is the economics. HD will take off when the sets cost the same as SD sets... Happened with CDs, when players and disks got down to at or near cassette costs... happened with DVD the same way. Nothing else matters, not quality, not content, nothing... only price. ash =o)

January 13th, 2006, 06:03 PM	#52
Peter Wiley Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lewisburg PA Posts: 752	I saw an interview recently with some local Public TV station execs on the SD/HD issue. They suggested that the sets and program origination costs were nothing compared to the costs to equip their stations to broadcast HD -- the figure given was $10 million/station. The point made in the interview was that in the smaller markets with several stations local adversting just is not going to cover the transition costs; e.g. $40 million in a market with 4 stations say. Of course there are some kinds of programming that only local stations are going to do and so SD may linger in small markets for some time.

January 13th, 2006, 09:01 PM	#53
Joe Womble New Boot Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 13	Luckily, one of the network affiliates here in Atlanta is going to broadcast their news in HD soon. WXIA (NBC) has been splashing ads about it for a couple of weeks. Don't know if it will be studio only (likely) or some live segments as well. Regards, Joe Womble

January 14th, 2006, 04:03 AM	#54
Evan C. King Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 532	"A new survey from Panasonic shows that one in every four U. S. households either own or plan to own an HDTV set by the end of 2006" I don't believe that stat at all. Because for that to be true almost all of those people would have to buy one in this year!

January 18th, 2006, 04:45 PM	#56
Mike Morrell Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Norcross GA Posts: 119	[QUOTE=Kevin Shaw]Aye, but there's the rub! When you spend thousands of dollars for an HDTV you'd prefer to get the best possible viewing experience you can, and there's simply no good way to convert 4x3 SD video to look good on a large widescreen HDTV. The change in viewing aspect ratio combined with the change in resolution is a death knell for all non-widescreen SD cameras, as you can see for yourself once you have a decent HDTV. I've got no less than 4 HDTV's and I can tell you that some SD broadcasts,such as WSB-TV news, although pillar boxed, do look fantastic. WTBS over the air looks pretty darn good too, like the best DVD progressive 480p movies look. My biggest TV is a 96" front projection. And you can see more of a difference on this TV than any of my smaller ones, but great up-converted SD, keeping the aspect ratio true, can look pretty darn good and much better than any OTA analog has ever looked. I also have a direct view CRT 32" HD TV, and while not to the $10,000+ plasma TV quality standard, it is at least another "decent" HDTV that I am watching. My others are flat panel LCD's and they are not as discerning. Mind you, I am not arguing agaist HDTV in its full glory, but I thought that I would clalrify my position on good SD.