HVX200 - to Tape OR to P2, that is the Question

Jaime Valles · December 8th, 2005, 10:05 AM

Yeah, the HVX + two 4GB P2 card bundle is less than $7000. Bliss...

Barry Green · December 8th, 2005, 01:27 PM

That's retail -- street price might be a grand less than that. Although I don't know if we'll see much discounting until the backorders are filled...

December 8th, 2005, 09:34 PM

Barry,

You and Jared did a nice job providing the HVX200 footage. Thank you.

Daniel Broadway · December 8th, 2005, 09:46 PM

Could you capture the footage directly to a PC as well, or does it have to be a laptop? Say, if you are in a studio enviroment, and you've got a PC sitting there, could you just firewire it in that way?

Barry Green · December 9th, 2005, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Broadway

Could you capture the footage directly to a PC as well, or does it have to be a laptop? Say, if you are in a studio enviroment, and you've got a PC sitting there, could you just firewire it in that way?

Sure -- there's nothing unique about the laptop for that purpose, other than it being portable. If you're talking about a studio shoot, you could easily pipe a firewire cable over to a desktop and use your NLE's capture application to stream the full HD signal directly to the hard disk.

Barlow Elton · December 9th, 2005, 12:18 AM

Barry, is that how you guys recorded the HVX footage? I noticed the h.264 Karate Kid clip was a 60p recording (59.94 actually) with 24p look. Stepping through the frames seemed to confirm the repeat frames, which I presume you wouldn't record with P2. If you did go the laptop route, did it require a fast IDE internal drive, or did you pipe it into a G5 with a RAID somehow?

Just curious...

Barlow Elton · December 9th, 2005, 03:09 PM

Barry, hope I didn't offend by calling it a "Karate Kid" clip. I apologize if I did. It's very nice material. Just wondered how you acquired it.

Barry Green · December 10th, 2005, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

Barry, is that how you guys recorded the HVX footage?

No, it was recorded on P2 cards using 720/24PN ("native") mode, so it only recorded the actual frames. So in 12p it only recorded 12 frames per second, etc.

It was then edited on FCP on a laptop, in a 24p timeline.

Quote:

I noticed the h.264 Karate Kid clip was a 60p recording (59.94 actually) with 24p look. Stepping through the frames seemed to confirm the repeat frames, which I presume you wouldn't record with P2.

Don't judge it based on that h.264. I don't know how that h.264 clip got authored, but it got authored wrong. It should have been authored with a 24p timebase, not a 60p timebase.

Quote:

If you did go the laptop route, did it require a fast IDE internal drive, or did you pipe it into a G5 with a RAID somehow?

I don't know the specs on the laptop, but I think it was just whatever current PowerBook is out. The drive we used was a regular external firewire drive, I think just a Maxtor OneTouch II, whatever Jarred picked up for cheap at Fry's. No RAID, nothing like that. We used a regular firewire drive and the editor guy was able to play back full-screen, full-res, full-motion video with no hassles at all. For that matter, he also showed me DVCPRO-HD footage playing back on a 2-year-old 1.33ghz G4 powerbook, playing off the internal hard disk. Full-screen, full-res, full-motion, no dropped frames, no problems at all.

Barry Green · December 10th, 2005, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

Barry, hope I didn't offend by calling it a "Karate Kid" clip. I apologize if I did. It's very nice material. Just wondered how you acquired it.

I'll have to start calling him that! :)

You can look him up at http://jakebass.com/.

Peter Reynolds · December 11th, 2005, 03:44 PM

I like to get everyone's opinion. I've done tons of research on the Sony Z1 and the upcoming Panasonic VX200, but I just can't decide.

What's holding me back is the P2 cards. I want to record HD (that's kind of the whole point), but from what I've been reading, you can only record HD to the P2 cards or to a hard drive. No tape option whatsoever.

Now, I'm a video producer with a number of clients. I currently have hundreds of tapes from various shoots over the last couple of years. Some projects (like documentaries) are ongoing, others are raw footage archived for the client (special events, AGMs, etc).

If I want to shoot HD with the Panasonic, I'm assuming this would mean that I:

1. Have a separate, removable hardrive for each project and each client

2. Have a DVCPRO HD Recorder to output the footage to tape. Current cost: $25,000 Canadian.

Am I correct? This does seem like a real negative. Though I know the there are issues with Sony (no 24p for instance), being able to record HDV straight to tape seems like a real plus.

Any thoughts you could offer would be most appreciated. Again, other than having a hundred hard drives, how do I manage footage from multiple clients day-to-day?

Thanks.

Peter Reynolds
www.fortherecordproductions.com

Bill Pryor · December 11th, 2005, 04:19 PM

That's the problem. In your circumstances, I'd go for the $25K deck. Even if you get a separate hard drive for each program you're working on, you still would need a second drive for backup for each one. Remember, you dump your footage to the hard drive, then erase the P2 cards. I wouldn't feel very comfortable with my only original footage on a hard drive. I've seen lots of hard drives die for no reason, but I've never seen a tape die, and I've got lots of tapes that are over 20 years old.
I'm hoping Sony or somebody would come out with an optical disc recorder so P2 footage could be backed up that way. The discs are cheap enough to store as we do tapes.

Paulo Teixeira · December 11th, 2005, 05:25 PM

If you’re not in a hurry, you can get a Blue laser burner once it comes out in the 1st quarter of 2006. Each disk is expected to hold 50 gigs of information which equals to 50 minutes of DVCPRO HD footage if my calculations are correct.

Barlow Elton · December 11th, 2005, 05:36 PM

Well, given that you're even considering the Z1, I would suggest demoing the Canon XL H1. It's easily the best HDV camera on the market. A lot of people are going to be shocked as to what that camera can do. All I know is it shoots astonishingly good HD onto cheap DV tape.

If you're only considering 1/3" cameras, the H1 would probably give you the best combination of image quality (far FAR better than Sony's) and simplicity. It can give you a very good film look in 24F mode, and shoot superb 1080i to
inexpensive media. Yes, it's more expensive than Sony, but not much more than the HVX when you consider the P2 scenario. That camera is more like a $7000 minimum investment (unless you want to try and tote around a laptop and be tethered to it) and that's with miniscule recording times.

The HVX is not the camera to own if you want a simple archive workflow.

Kevin Wild · December 11th, 2005, 05:39 PM

When it comes to a film look, don't forget how much better/shallower a depth of field can be with a 20x lens compared to a 13x or 10x. I get some pretty good blurry backgrounds with my 20x XL2 lens, though you have to have a lot of room! It also makes some awkward interviews when you're standing 50 feet away! But it works...and looks great. I'm sure the H1 will, as well.

KW

Barlow Elton · December 11th, 2005, 06:30 PM

I could swear there's a little more play with the 20x H1 lens then with previous lenses. Let's not forget how cool it is to be able to take the lens off and put on a mini35 if you REALLY want shallow DOF

December 11th, 2005, 03:44 PM	#25
Peter Reynolds New Boot Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20	No HD recording to tape... Tough decision I like to get everyone's opinion. I've done tons of research on the Sony Z1 and the upcoming Panasonic VX200, but I just can't decide. What's holding me back is the P2 cards. I want to record HD (that's kind of the whole point), but from what I've been reading, you can only record HD to the P2 cards or to a hard drive. No tape option whatsoever. Now, I'm a video producer with a number of clients. I currently have hundreds of tapes from various shoots over the last couple of years. Some projects (like documentaries) are ongoing, others are raw footage archived for the client (special events, AGMs, etc). If I want to shoot HD with the Panasonic, I'm assuming this would mean that I: 1. Have a separate, removable hardrive for each project and each client 2. Have a DVCPRO HD Recorder to output the footage to tape. Current cost: $25,000 Canadian. Am I correct? This does seem like a real negative. Though I know the there are issues with Sony (no 24p for instance), being able to record HDV straight to tape seems like a real plus. Any thoughts you could offer would be most appreciated. Again, other than having a hundred hard drives, how do I manage footage from multiple clients day-to-day? Thanks. Peter Reynolds www.fortherecordproductions.com

December 11th, 2005, 05:25 PM	#27
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	Blue Laser If you’re not in a hurry, you can get a Blue laser burner once it comes out in the 1st quarter of 2006. Each disk is expected to hold 50 gigs of information which equals to 50 minutes of DVCPRO HD footage if my calculations are correct.

December 8th, 2005, 10:05 AM	#16
Jaime Valles Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New York City, NY Posts: 316	Yeah, the HVX + two 4GB P2 card bundle is less than $7000. Bliss...

December 8th, 2005, 01:27 PM	#17
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	That's retail -- street price might be a grand less than that. Although I don't know if we'll see much discounting until the backorders are filled...

December 8th, 2005, 09:34 PM	#18
Guest Posts: n/a	Barry, You and Jared did a nice job providing the HVX200 footage. Thank you.

December 8th, 2005, 09:46 PM	#19
Daniel Broadway Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alabama Posts: 165	Could you capture the footage directly to a PC as well, or does it have to be a laptop? Say, if you are in a studio enviroment, and you've got a PC sitting there, could you just firewire it in that way?

December 9th, 2005, 12:18 AM	#21
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Barry, is that how you guys recorded the HVX footage? I noticed the h.264 Karate Kid clip was a 60p recording (59.94 actually) with 24p look. Stepping through the frames seemed to confirm the repeat frames, which I presume you wouldn't record with P2. If you did go the laptop route, did it require a fast IDE internal drive, or did you pipe it into a G5 with a RAID somehow? Just curious...

December 9th, 2005, 03:09 PM	#22
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Barry, hope I didn't offend by calling it a "Karate Kid" clip. I apologize if I did. It's very nice material. Just wondered how you acquired it.

December 11th, 2005, 04:19 PM	#26
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	That's the problem. In your circumstances, I'd go for the $25K deck. Even if you get a separate hard drive for each program you're working on, you still would need a second drive for backup for each one. Remember, you dump your footage to the hard drive, then erase the P2 cards. I wouldn't feel very comfortable with my only original footage on a hard drive. I've seen lots of hard drives die for no reason, but I've never seen a tape die, and I've got lots of tapes that are over 20 years old. I'm hoping Sony or somebody would come out with an optical disc recorder so P2 footage could be backed up that way. The discs are cheap enough to store as we do tapes.

December 11th, 2005, 05:36 PM	#28
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Well, given that you're even considering the Z1, I would suggest demoing the Canon XL H1. It's easily the best HDV camera on the market. A lot of people are going to be shocked as to what that camera can do. All I know is it shoots astonishingly good HD onto cheap DV tape. If you're only considering 1/3" cameras, the H1 would probably give you the best combination of image quality (far FAR better than Sony's) and simplicity. It can give you a very good film look in 24F mode, and shoot superb 1080i to inexpensive media. Yes, it's more expensive than Sony, but not much more than the HVX when you consider the P2 scenario. That camera is more like a $7000 minimum investment (unless you want to try and tote around a laptop and be tethered to it) and that's with miniscule recording times. The HVX is not the camera to own if you want a simple archive workflow.

December 11th, 2005, 05:39 PM	#29
Kevin Wild Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 540	When it comes to a film look, don't forget how much better/shallower a depth of field can be with a 20x lens compared to a 13x or 10x. I get some pretty good blurry backgrounds with my 20x XL2 lens, though you have to have a lot of room! It also makes some awkward interviews when you're standing 50 feet away! But it works...and looks great. I'm sure the H1 will, as well. KW

December 11th, 2005, 06:30 PM	#30
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	I could swear there's a little more play with the 20x H1 lens then with previous lenses. Let's not forget how cool it is to be able to take the lens off and put on a mini35 if you REALLY want shallow DOF