Best editing platform for HVX?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Steve Collins

Check out the Matrox Axio. Once they release the DVCPRO codec it will be one of the most powerful ways to edit HD for the money.

If it's as flakey, "full featured" and as "well" supported as all their other products over the past few years, I'll pass. And it uses Premiere... Yuck. I know this is just my OPINION, but why would anyone spend that kind of money on a Premiere editing solution that can't run any more streams in realtime than what a top of the line workstation can do on its own now?

[Steve Collins]

Originally Posted by Robert Mann Z.

Steve do you have axio, can premiere edit dvcpro files with the axio codec on a laptop with any rt playback? for that matter can fcp on a laptop?
with the Edius you are also able to use proxy files so you can work with 1/4 of the bandwidth... can premiere or fcp 5 do this if anyone knows that would be a great help thanks...

No I don't own an Axio, yet...
Yes, premiere can but your limited to what it can do in realtime out of the box.


Yes, you can use proxy files with axio or premiere as long as you batch capture with and EDL. Axio also has a proxy codec itself.

From the website:

"For responsive low bit rate editing of proxy HD material on a laptop, from a DVD, or over a low-bandwidth network, Matrox Axio also features an offline HD codec."


"Offline editing using the Matrox Axio offline HD codec
The Matrox Axio offline HD codec captures HD material at 1/16 resolution. For example a 1920 x 1080 image will be captured at 480 x 270 at less than 10 mbps. Aspect ratio, frame rate, and timecode are preserved for easy conforming"

"The Matrox Axio offline HD codec offers many advantages:
• Because the proxy files are small, you get very responsive performance for making your offline edit decisions, even on an ordinary laptop.
• When you use the proxy files on an Axio system they will be scaled to full size for previewing your project either directly on your HD video monitor or by printing to tape. You can even mix the proxy files with full resolution clips.
• When you are ready to create your HD master, your simply batch re-capture the required clips at full resolution. Frame rates match perfectly, so timecode is always accurate."


If your interested in editing DVCP Pro HD with Premiere natively with out the proprietary hardware I would check out Prospect HD from Cineform :
http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm

or the upcoming DVC Pro HD COdec from Main Concept:

http://www.mainconcept.com/index_flash.shtml

[John Benton]

the HVX and an old Apple 17" w/ FCP & Lumiere...Sure they will be some problems, but hey...

[Damon Botsford]

Originally Posted by Damon Botsford

Wouldn't it be neat if Canopus just bundled the whole damn thing together at a reasonable price? Kind of like a NX for HVX (or) NX for DVCPROHD package. Canopus real-time editing is huge, but I'm not so sure many people will be willing to shell out another $4000+ (NX + all options minus computer!) after purchasing the HVX.

Apparently, Canopus is working on a new package which will bundle options at a better price. Canopus support said it would be announced soon. Perhaps it's targeted at the the HVX? This is great news for Canopus fans.

[Steve Collins]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

If it's as flakey, "full featured" and as "well" supported as all their other products over the past few years, I'll pass. And it uses Premiere... Yuck. I know this is just my OPINION, but why would anyone spend that kind of money on a Premiere editing solution that can't run any more streams in realtime than what a top of the line workstation can do on its own now?

People who say those kind of things About Premire Pro IMHO can not have used the product recently. It has come a long way and has matched FCP in it latest release. What is better tho, and makes it a better value to me is it's integration with other Adobe products such as audition, encore and AE. When you can copy your DVD menus into photoshop and then send them to After effects to make motion menus and then send them back to Encore for finishing, or copy and paste between Premiere and AE you will understand what I mean.

As far as Matrox goes, I have had their RTX100 and Premiere which have been Rock solid for two years now.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Steve Collins

People who say those kind of things About Premire Pro IMHO can not have used the product recently. It has come a long way and has matched FCP in it latest release. What is better tho, and makes it a better value to me is it's integration with other Adobe products such as audition, encore and AE. When you can copy your DVD menus into photoshop and then send them to After effects to make motion menus and then send them back to Encore for finishing, or copy and paste between Premiere and AE you will understand what I mean.

As far as Matrox goes, I have had their RTX100 and Premiere which have been Rock solid for two years now.

I know a lot of people really like Premiere Pro. Good for them. I can understand the integration with other Adobe apps being a huge issue... I would like all my apps to integrate with Photoshop, Illustrator and Encore, but this just isn't the case. I'd like to use AfterEffects more than I do, but it doesn't do everything I need -- I use Fusion. I have tried using Premiere Pro with its initial release and it was promptly uninstalled and the disc was thrown back in my video collection box. I tried it again with the last major update and my opinion changed for the better, but it still didn't handle everything I needed. It was too limited right out of the box and by the time I purchased the third party add-ons I needed, I wasn't gaining anything in terms of time or value over my current solution.

As for the RTX100, I owned one briefly not too long after they were released. I returned it... Actually it was rather stable -- better than many of Matrox's previous offerings in the same class over the past couple years. However, it's claims of "real time" were a joke and my PC with Speed Razor and Vegas could run and process more clips in real time on its own than when it was limited to the RTX100 hardware. I realize I'm in the minority here and I run some rather powerful hardware and I'm rarely limited to or working with DV video. But Matrox products have really failed to impress me over the past several years and as far as Adobe software is concerned, Photoshop, and to a lesser degree Encore and perhaps Illustrator are the only programs they offer that truly cross the boundry into serious professional territory. AfterEffects only goes part of the way and only if you buy the Pro version with 16bpc support. OTOH, the complete Adobe Video Collection Pro can be purchased for 1/4th the cost of Fusion or other application on that level.

Just my $0.01 -- agree with me or not, I don't care.

Looks like I'm moving over to Avid for editing and that should help anyway as I have been transitioning more and more of my 3D work from Lightwave to XSI. Fusion will continue to be used for comp work combined with Photoshop. Encore still handles a fair amount of my DVD authoring (probably 75%), but it's braindead MPEG2 encoding is inexcusable and all the work-arounds to get studio quality DVDs out of the app are annoying to say the least. But enough of my rants... To each, his own. If products like the RTX100 and Premiere Pro suit your tastes and your needs, then more power to you.

[Steve Collins]

[To each, his own. If products like the RTX100 and Premiere Pro suit your tastes and your needs, then more power to you.[/QUOTE]

Well said........

I just get tired of the Premiere bashing especially from people who have not used it for awhile. It's hard to remove certain beliefs when someone has had a bad experince. I use Premiere because in my work flow (mostly :30 spot), it works best for me in my experience and it has a pretty bright future with DVCPRO HD.

[Ash Greyson]

I think some people are in for a rude awakening. DVCPRO-HD requires tons more space and super fast drives. Yes you can transfer from P2 to your hard drive and edit but performance will not be the same as DV, not close. You need an expensive fibre raid if you want the same performance from HD as you are used to from SD DV. Most people will have to do a low rez offline and re-compose an HD online.



ash =o)

[Terence Lehane]

Yes unfortunately I believe a lot of people will get some bad surprises when they try to edit DVCPro HD.
I'm really looking forward to getting this camera but I know I'll have to completely change my editing system.
Up to now I used Premiere with Matrox RTX100. As someone said the RT in RTX100 is not as good as it is made out to be. The Matrox effects are in real time but as soon as you have 2 effects you have to render. And I'm talking about DV.

So on to HD. The Matrox Axio system looks quite impressive but very expensive. They sell a whole package including the workstation so they can then guarantee their RT claims. They work with Premiere. The cost of their system including storage and monitors comes out at around $25,000. Throw in the camera and you have about $35,000 more or less to spend.

But I am seriously considering moving over to the Mac after 20 years of Windows. The new dual processor dual core Quad power Mac looks really suited for the job. Add plenty of memory (buy from third parties, memory from Apple is too expensive), buy a Raid 0 disk array and an AJA card and I think you'll be able to edit HD just like DV now. The cost of that is around $18,000 depending on how much memory, storage etc. you buy. I am also drawn by the Mac's legendary stability. I think for HD that will be important given the strain put on all the computer's resources.

I am justifying the expense by using it for professional purposes. I want to have a format I can deliver directly to television for documentary programmes and DVCPro HD gives me just that. By starting to shoot in HD now I can have a store of HD products ready when serious HD broadcasting starts in Europe. So I am getting a future-proofed (HD) yet currently usable (DVCPro 50) broadcast standard format that I will edit on a Power Mac. All I'll have to do is rent the deck to output the final tape. And of course I love the idea of P2 cards. Going out for a day's shooting with 10 64-GB cards would be great. That day will come.

I think HDV is a good idea for people who can't put up $18,000. The image will not have the colour resolution of HD but if treated rightly in terms of compression and editing it can look great and be of broadcast quality also. And of course the hardware/software required is so much more affordable.

To end on an optimistic note, since prices are always coming down I think it will be possible to acquire the above $18,000 dollar system equivalent for around $8,000 in a few years mainly due to the fall in raid storage costs which I think will fall dramatically as they become more prosumer and as sales increase due to the HD revolution.

Bye for now

Terence

[Steve Collins]

For those who think the requirements for DVCPro HD may be too hefty, look here:

http://www.cineform.com/technology/H...lysis10bit.htm
http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm

As far as dual core macs go, right now they don't come anywhere close to dual core, dual proccesor Intel and especially AMD machines at almost the same price.
Also if your thinking about buying a mac now I would wait a year until they complete the move to Intel........

Decklink and AJA cards also work with Windows and Premiere.

[David M. Payne]

Originally Posted by Ronald Ng

Interesting thread.

Suppose I was to buy a BRAND SPANKING NEW editing suite just for the HVX (assuming I have a lot of work to edit), if I was to get a P2 capable Mac and/or a Edius and/or a whatever then, what would be the all inclusive barebones price to get into the game, so the speak?

Good question, I hope someone here can answer it because I'd like to know the answer too.

David

[Steev Dinkins]

Originally Posted by Steve Collins

As far as dual core macs go, right now they don't come anywhere close to dual core, dual proccesor Intel and especially AMD machines at almost the same price.

"Anywhere close"? Sounds like you're getting a little over zealous now. Where are you getting your information from? Over at AlienWare, yes, I can get a wicked machine with a Dual AMD Opteron™ 280 2.4 GHz 64-Bit w/Dual Core. And over at Apple, I can get, and have a Dual 2.5Ghz Dual Core (Quad Core) G5 Power Mac.

Originally Posted by Steve Collins

Also if your thinking about buying a mac now I would wait a year until they complete the move to Intel..

Not if you want the fastest Mac available right now, and you're ready to buy.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by David M. Payne

Good question, I hope someone here can answer it because I'd like to know the answer too.

David

Yeah, me too. After configuring a new PC laptop with a 2.00ghz Pentium M 760, a 1920x1200 screen and 100gb hard disk and loading it up with Vegas 6 and the pre-release of DVFilm Maker and the Avid DV100 codec, I thought I was all set. I tried loading up the HVX footage we shot to edit, and it was pig-dog-slow. Didn't work at all, maybe 1fps.

Then I watched MacMaster Art Aldrich pull out a two-year-old, 1.33ghz Powerbook and proceed to edit that same footage in all its full-screen, full-rez, full-frame-rate glory. Hey, I've never used FCP and I haven't used a Mac since my old 512k "Fat Mac" back in 1985 or whenever, but -- let me just say, it was impressive.

I still have to check out the Canopus booth to see their editing solution in action, but right now the Mac looks like a really, really solid choice. And it doesn't have to be any superstar Mac platform either, like I said this was on a 2-year-old 1.33ghz system. Michael Wong of Apple told me that on a modern Powerbook you should be able to get six streams (SIX STREAMS!) of DVCPRO-HD playing in real time off the internal hard disk of a laptop! On a desktop, maybe 11.

Everyone knows I love Sony's Vegas software, but by my watch they've got 22 days to sort out their support for DV100 or I may just end up jumping ship to Apple (or perhaps Canopus).

[David M. Payne]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

Yeah, me too. After configuring a new PC laptop with a 2.00ghz Pentium M 760, a 1920x1200 screen and 100gb hard disk and loading it up with Vegas 6 and the pre-release of DVFilm Maker and the Avid DV100 codec, I thought I was all set. I tried loading up the HVX footage we shot to edit, and it was pig-dog-slow. Didn't work at all, maybe 1fps.

Then I watched MacMaster Art Aldrich pull out a two-year-old, 1.33ghz Powerbook and proceed to edit that same footage in all its full-screen, full-rez, full-frame-rate glory. Hey, I've never used FCP and I haven't used a Mac since my old 512k "Fat Mac" back in 1985 or whenever, but -- let me just say, it was impressive.

I still have to check out the Canopus booth to see their editing solution in action, but right now the Mac looks like a really, really solid choice. And it doesn't have to be any superstar Mac platform either, like I said this was on a 2-year-old 1.33ghz system. Michael Wong of Apple told me that on a modern Powerbook you should be able to get six streams (SIX STREAMS!) of DVCPRO-HD playing in real time off the internal hard disk of a laptop! On a desktop, maybe 11.

Everyone knows I love Sony's Vegas software, but by my watch they've got 22 days to sort out their support for DV100 or I may just end up jumping ship to Apple (or perhaps Canopus).

Thanks Barry, I've been a PC user so far, but it looks like I'll have to learn how to use a Mac if I want to do my film in HD with a couple of HVX's. Well OK then, I'll get a couple of macs a loaded G-5 and a power book for one of the cameras and the FCP software and go from there. "Holy War" is becoming a money pit though.

David

[Robert Mann Z.]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

I still have to check out the Canopus booth to see their editing solution in action, ...

it has the best intergration as it keeps xml metadata through the entire editing process, from capture, to edit and back to p2/hd...

edius needs no hardware but it does need a p2 option, codec pack and varicam option that i crowed about being expensive and stupidly sold seperatly...they listened i guess

and announced you can buy all of it for about $500 bucks, plus they throw in some other goodies like sonys xdcam codec

edius is very solid, i have been editing dvcpro50 on my laptop for some time now, very solid, ...

edius doesn not have the industry support of fcp nor the tool set of fcp, but certainly blows away any editor working on a laptop for speed and rt relabilty where i do 60% of my cuts...

i always amaze other editors that i never have to render anything, i just plug into their AJ-HD1200 or AJ-SD900 and print to tape, multi layers of dvcpro 50 with cc transitions fades and slowmotion...i really see why news guys love to use edius its very fast and rt output second to none

folks looking for a full featured editor with full alpha support, prestine 3d effects, nesting, speed ramps, and all things keyframed should look at fcp, edius will not satisfy...edius "supposedly" gets these and other major tools at nab with the version 4 update...but i'm not holding my breath