HVX200 Workflow? at DVinfo.net

Carl Merritt · November 10th, 2005, 10:30 AM

My employer has agreed to get quotes on HVX200 system, and I'm suggesting the B&H $10k deal with two 8gb cards.

My question is, does each 8gb card hold 16min of DVCPro50, and so together they hold approx 32minutes? Or does the 8gb mean both cards together hld 16min of DVCPro50?

Do they fill sequentially, so one can buy a 3rd card and "hot swap", dumping the first while the 2nd records and the 3rd is is in the 1st's slot, allowing for continuous recording?

I'm assuming, even at faster than realtime dumping, it would still take time to put the card into a reader and set the file or whatever...

Or is it even necessary to have the 3rd and the offloading is maybe 3x or 4x so it takes less than 5 minutes?

thanks.

edit
btw, sorry if this is covered elsewhere, but I can't get the forum search to work.

Barry Green · November 10th, 2005, 12:29 PM

You're correct on all counts. Yes it's 16 minutes of DVCPRO50 per 8gb card, so together you get 32 minutes on two 8gb. Yes clips can span across cards, so yes you can do hot swapping and keep recording -- even perpetually, if you felt like offloading the cards.

As far as offloading speed, it's dependent on the speed of the device you're offloading to. A normal hard disk will yield about realtime offload speeds, so 8 minutes for an 8gb card. If you were offloading to a desktop SATA RAID, you could get as fast as 6x realtime, or maybe a minute and a half to offload an 8gb card. Through firewire the maximum you can hope for is 400mbps, or 4x realtime. But again, it depends on how fast the receiving device is. Panasonic's own P2 Store device transfers at about realtime, 1 minute per gig.

Carl Merritt · November 10th, 2005, 12:55 PM

Okay.
With this camera we would shoot either DVCPRO50 or 720pHD, and 16min would never be enough, so swapping is required and less expensive than having lots of cards.

Thanks.

Daniel Weber · November 10th, 2005, 04:05 PM

I believe that if you shoot 720p24 you get 20 minutes of footage for each 8gig card. I maybe wrong but I believe that is what Jan said at a presentation that I attended at DV Expo East a few months back.

Dan Weber

John Benton · November 10th, 2005, 05:26 PM

or you wait for the Firestore 100 Gb drive (which is sub 2000$ - coming in a few months correct?) and record to that.
How much is an 8G P2 around 2000$ too no?
Or does the Firestore involve some kind of compression where the P2 are Native HD?

Barry Green · November 10th, 2005, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Weber

I believe that if you shoot 720p24 you get 20 minutes of footage for each 8gig card. I maybe wrong but I believe that is what Jan said at a presentation that I attended at DV Expo East a few months back.

You are correct, an 8gb card can hold 20 minutes of 720/24p.

Barry Green · November 10th, 2005, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Benton

Or does the Firestore involve some kind of compression where the P2 are Native HD?

The FireStore doesn't compress the data any more than it already is. Both P2 and FireStore will store exactly the same quality.

John Benton · November 10th, 2005, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

The FireStore doesn't compress the data any more than it already is. Both P2 and FireStore will store exactly the same quality.

So since they are close in price,
but the P2 card is 8G's v. the Firstore at 80 or 100G's...so...
What's the catch? Does the Firestore humm or make noise or what?

Thanks,

Barry Green · November 11th, 2005, 01:15 AM

The firestore is an unreleased product, so anything we say about it can only be taken as speculation.

A P2 card acts basically as a solid-state hard disk. It's small, rugged, relatively indestructible, heatproof, dustproof, humidity-proof, shockproof, doesn't need a power supply, doesn't have any moving parts, doesn't make any noise at all, fits inside the camera, and is way, way fast.

A hard drive is basically the opposite. It's a larger, bulky external box that gets connected through a cable (and if it's a firewire cable, that's not proven to be the most secure of connections). It spins, it makes some level of noise, it most definitely doesn't like to get dropped, doesn't like heat or humidity or dust, is basically a much more fragile device. And it's much slower for transferring footage to your editing system.

Basically, if cost and capacity were the same, P2 cards would own hard disks all day long. But cost and capacity aren't the same. The firestore will have a significant advantage in cost per gigabyte and total gigabytes, at the compromise of ruggedness/reliability. The P2 card should be nigh unto indestructible for most uses, but is more expensive per gigabyte and is currently limited in size, with 8gb being the largest card available (or imminently available). The FireStore will offer 100gb of storage, but instead of a slim internal PCMCIA card, it's an external box that needs a battery and such.

Basically, if the capacity of a P2 card is big enough for your needs, the P2 card wins all other comparisons handily. For mobility and elegance and durability etc., for speed of offloading footage, etc, it's P2 all the way. But for long-form recording, the FireStore has the ability to store at least 100 minutes of footage. If your workflow demands long recording times, it's not even currently a contest, of course the FireStore would be the preferable solution for that type of work.

Carl Merritt · November 11th, 2005, 08:06 AM

Problem is, we want to get the camera when it's released. To get the full functionality of the thing one must have P2 cards, until the firestore is released.

If the release dates I've read are accurate, and the HVX200 comes out in December but the firestore isn't until late spring/early summer, then that's a long time to have a camera sitting on the shelf.

John Benton · November 11th, 2005, 08:52 AM

yes, that's one way of looking at it,
but the other is that you get a 4G P2 card and get accustomed to the Camera and doing smaller shots, in my case I envision an 8G card that I get 20 minutes of 720 24p out of and download every convenient chance I get
so I always have the ability to go for as long as I can --

all that while I am waiting for the Firestore - the onr released for the JVC, seems to fit handsomly on top and probably has power or draws it from the camera - anybody know?

Still, it is precarious and I am still weighing the pros and cons of this v the JVC HD100u...with a firestore.
Yes it doesnt have 1080i but 720p HDV is higher res than 720p DVCPro correct ?and a Progressive look(film) is more of what I crave than interlaced anyway
And the interchangable lenses is a real plus
But DVCPro I am told is a lot more robust and the Pany has more range and is more of a forward looking machine with it and the P2 cards as well...
plus it's nice and small

I guess finally it comes down to the image
and I just can't stand waiting

November 10th, 2005, 10:30 AM	#1
Carl Merritt Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 60	HVX200 Workflow? My employer has agreed to get quotes on HVX200 system, and I'm suggesting the B&H $10k deal with two 8gb cards. My question is, does each 8gb card hold 16min of DVCPro50, and so together they hold approx 32minutes? Or does the 8gb mean both cards together hld 16min of DVCPro50? Do they fill sequentially, so one can buy a 3rd card and "hot swap", dumping the first while the 2nd records and the 3rd is is in the 1st's slot, allowing for continuous recording? I'm assuming, even at faster than realtime dumping, it would still take time to put the card into a reader and set the file or whatever... Or is it even necessary to have the 3rd and the offloading is maybe 3x or 4x so it takes less than 5 minutes? thanks. edit btw, sorry if this is covered elsewhere, but I can't get the forum search to work. Last edited by Carl Merritt; November 10th, 2005 at 11:05 AM.

November 10th, 2005, 04:05 PM	#4
Daniel Weber Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 696	HVX200 Workflow? I believe that if you shoot 720p24 you get 20 minutes of footage for each 8gig card. I maybe wrong but I believe that is what Jan said at a presentation that I attended at DV Expo East a few months back. Dan Weber

November 10th, 2005, 12:29 PM	#2
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	You're correct on all counts. Yes it's 16 minutes of DVCPRO50 per 8gb card, so together you get 32 minutes on two 8gb. Yes clips can span across cards, so yes you can do hot swapping and keep recording -- even perpetually, if you felt like offloading the cards. As far as offloading speed, it's dependent on the speed of the device you're offloading to. A normal hard disk will yield about realtime offload speeds, so 8 minutes for an 8gb card. If you were offloading to a desktop SATA RAID, you could get as fast as 6x realtime, or maybe a minute and a half to offload an 8gb card. Through firewire the maximum you can hope for is 400mbps, or 4x realtime. But again, it depends on how fast the receiving device is. Panasonic's own P2 Store device transfers at about realtime, 1 minute per gig.

November 10th, 2005, 12:55 PM	#3
Carl Merritt Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 60	Okay. With this camera we would shoot either DVCPRO50 or 720pHD, and 16min would never be enough, so swapping is required and less expensive than having lots of cards. Thanks.

November 10th, 2005, 05:26 PM	#5
John Benton Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 658	or you wait for the Firestore 100 Gb drive (which is sub 2000$ - coming in a few months correct?) and record to that. How much is an 8G P2 around 2000$ too no? Or does the Firestore involve some kind of compression where the P2 are Native HD?

November 11th, 2005, 01:15 AM	#9
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The firestore is an unreleased product, so anything we say about it can only be taken as speculation. A P2 card acts basically as a solid-state hard disk. It's small, rugged, relatively indestructible, heatproof, dustproof, humidity-proof, shockproof, doesn't need a power supply, doesn't have any moving parts, doesn't make any noise at all, fits inside the camera, and is way, way fast. A hard drive is basically the opposite. It's a larger, bulky external box that gets connected through a cable (and if it's a firewire cable, that's not proven to be the most secure of connections). It spins, it makes some level of noise, it most definitely doesn't like to get dropped, doesn't like heat or humidity or dust, is basically a much more fragile device. And it's much slower for transferring footage to your editing system. Basically, if cost and capacity were the same, P2 cards would own hard disks all day long. But cost and capacity aren't the same. The firestore will have a significant advantage in cost per gigabyte and total gigabytes, at the compromise of ruggedness/reliability. The P2 card should be nigh unto indestructible for most uses, but is more expensive per gigabyte and is currently limited in size, with 8gb being the largest card available (or imminently available). The FireStore will offer 100gb of storage, but instead of a slim internal PCMCIA card, it's an external box that needs a battery and such. Basically, if the capacity of a P2 card is big enough for your needs, the P2 card wins all other comparisons handily. For mobility and elegance and durability etc., for speed of offloading footage, etc, it's P2 all the way. But for long-form recording, the FireStore has the ability to store at least 100 minutes of footage. If your workflow demands long recording times, it's not even currently a contest, of course the FireStore would be the preferable solution for that type of work.

November 11th, 2005, 08:06 AM	#10
Carl Merritt Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 60	Problem is, we want to get the camera when it's released. To get the full functionality of the thing one must have P2 cards, until the firestore is released. If the release dates I've read are accurate, and the HVX200 comes out in December but the firestore isn't until late spring/early summer, then that's a long time to have a camera sitting on the shelf.

November 11th, 2005, 08:52 AM	#11
John Benton Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 658	yes, that's one way of looking at it, but the other is that you get a 4G P2 card and get accustomed to the Camera and doing smaller shots, in my case I envision an 8G card that I get 20 minutes of 720 24p out of and download every convenient chance I get so I always have the ability to go for as long as I can -- all that while I am waiting for the Firestore - the onr released for the JVC, seems to fit handsomly on top and probably has power or draws it from the camera - anybody know? Still, it is precarious and I am still weighing the pros and cons of this v the JVC HD100u...with a firestore. Yes it doesnt have 1080i but 720p HDV is higher res than 720p DVCPro correct ?and a Progressive look(film) is more of what I crave than interlaced anyway And the interchangable lenses is a real plus But DVCPro I am told is a lot more robust and the Pany has more range and is more of a forward looking machine with it and the P2 cards as well... plus it's nice and small I guess finally it comes down to the image and I just can't stand waiting