Major advantage of the HVX200? at DVinfo.net

Sergio Perez · September 21st, 2005, 03:19 AM

I started a thread here saying that I was going for the HVX, because I loved my DVX, the way it handled and the results I got from the image. However, I feel this new Canon proposition to be a real contender this time.

One of the main concerns I have is for the very long wait for a PAL release. I really don't understand that. More so, I really cannot feel happy for the fact the camera is locked for Pal and Ntsc- needing two different versions for these regions.

The canon, while not offering immediate worldwide compatibility, asks you for a 500 dollar firmware update. Fair enough. The option is there. The HVX doesn't. In order to produce content for specific regions (and yes, you can convert in post, but you definetly lose something from the native format), you have to either buy 2 different region HVX's or do conversions in Post.

The P2 ends up not being a big deal with the Firestore coming. However, it's coming in March, so at that time the canon should have been in the market for about 5 months. Probably a sdi capture device would have come up for the canon by then, or at least announced.

I believe that with some scene file tuning the canon could give a similar picture compared to the Panasonic. However, I really do like my dvx, and I never liked the xl1- never tried an xl2, tough. This time around, I might go the other way. I do feel that the universal recording for the camera HAD to be implemented in the HVX. Because the competition just broke that barrier, and everyone is doing it. This is value for money. I feel that the existence of region specific hvx's is just a form of milking money.

I sincerely hope that an announcement on this matter is done, specially with the PAL delay. Maybe this could prove a benefit in order to add these fundamental extra features?

Mike Medavoy · September 21st, 2005, 09:05 AM

Speaking of the new Canon, what is the major advantage that the HVX200 might have over it?

Recording in DVCPRO HD as opposed to HDV? Does Canon's uncompressed HD-SDI feature make a difference in this battle? Plus, Canon has again an interchangable lens...

I own a DVX100A too, and I'm very happy about it. Wouldn't even compare it to the XL-1. So, I am not a Canon fan... But now it's time to seriously consider between these two cameras, and I was wondering what is the main reason that might push some of you to buy the HVX over the Canon.

Thanks!

Chris Hurd · September 21st, 2005, 09:54 AM

The HVX200 has several advantages over the Canon XL H1 and other camcorders.

Its smaller size and all-in-one form factor, lighter weight and its inherent portability will be a key point for some folks. The ability to remotely control focus and aperture via a pan-handle mounted lens controller will be another -- no other camera in this price range offers this, with the exception of the JVC GY-HD100 (but such controllers are twice as expensive for the HD100). The XL H1 allows remote control of focus and aperture over FireWire but it requires a PC laptop as the control interface.

Both the HVX200 and the XL H1 will offer you the ability to record DVCPRO HD. But in the HVX, this capability is built right into the camera, through the removeable P2 flash memory. With the XL H1, you'll need to cable out to a DVCPRO HD deck on location, fine for studio work but a cumbersome and somewhat limited application in the field... not to mention the extra cost of the deck rental.

Removeable P2 flash memory is in my opinion the single most important advantage of the HVX200. You can record 40 minutes of 720p DVCPRO HD at 24fps on the two 8GB cards in the camera, and you'll have a broad choice of various selectable frame rates in 720p.

See my P2 companion site at www.p2info.net for more info.

Matt Irwin · September 21st, 2005, 10:26 AM

I own an XL1 and I love the form factor of both the 1 and the XL2; however, in this arguement, I'm leaning toward the HVX.

The fact that Canon went with HDV took them down a peg or two in my book (i saw it coming, but I was still hoping otherwise). Most of the projects I'm on are low budget and costs are cut wherever possible. Having to rent an HD deck is money that a production would rather put toward what's going in front of the camera. As Chris mentioned above, the HVX does not need a deck to record HD.

Other than that the HVX is a much better form for run-and-gun shooting, and would be much more manageable than the XL when used with non-P+S cinema lens converters like the Micro35 (that adapter with the XLH1, the XL lens, and a 35mm zoom and matte box would make a longer camera rig than a varicam! Not exactly tight-space friendly...) Also, having a real flip out screen as opposed to that novelty eyepiece/ monitor combo that Canon has would be really nice.

Just my 2¢.

Michael Pappas · September 21st, 2005, 10:36 AM

[QUOTE=Chris Hurd] Removeable P2 flash memory is in my opinion the single most important advantage of the HVX200.>>>>

This is my number one favorite, "no tape" . I own a SD500 canon digital camera for carrying around. It shoots good video and and I can drop files straight into my computer. Just love it. So P2 is going to be a very refreshing change my production flow.

Pappas

Federico Martini Crotti · September 21st, 2005, 02:27 PM

Sergio,
check what Panasonic says in a global site:

"The AG-HVX200 inherits the VariCam's advanced functions and warm, rich expressivity. It allows 24P/30P(NTSC), 25p(PAL) progressive shooting in both 720p and 1080i recording, and it provides a Cine-like Gamma that captures images that are strikingly similar in tone to film."

Took this from this page:

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...200/index.html

As I read it it is both NTSC and PAL.

Ash Greyson · September 21st, 2005, 05:04 PM

Both cameras appeal to different sectors. For quick set-up in the field the HVX is perfect. For studio environments or more static set-ups, the XLH1 is perfect. Both have cost advantages/disadvantages. P2 cards are portable but insanely expensive and must be re-used leaving no back up of the source. HD-SDI allows you to go to a deck and at $100 a tape it is less expensive and you have a back-up, however, the HD decks are EXTREMELY expensive. The camera does allow a low cost HDV option though that the HVX lacks.

Until there is a reasonable, affordable workflow, neither will really take off. The HVX will sell a lot more but I venture to guess that most people will still be shooting SD with it for a while. I suspect most companies doing any HD stuff in studio or on location (sports, etc.) will add a couple XLH1's to their arsenal.

ash =o)

Omar Saad · September 21st, 2005, 05:26 PM

I have been reading a lot of these posts, and perhaps this is'nt the post for this question, but one main point still confuses me on the HVX. Does it do true 1080 24p? Is it truely progressive in the 1080 mode or does it do some sort of "cineframe" pulldown or conversion? I keep seeing it listed at 1080i 24p....is'nt that a contradiction? Sorry if I am causing the discussion to take a big step back but I can't seem to find a good answer on to the question. Any clarification would be appreciated.

thanks,
Omar

Jacques Mersereau · September 21st, 2005, 05:59 PM

There are good things and bad things about everything.

Everyone keeps saying that renting a deck is too expensive, yet
you will have to pony up $4K for the P2 cards. Then, how are you
going to archive (or Back Up)? Firewire drives are cheap . . . so cheap they
break without warning. A free repair on say a LaCie drive means
they return it (or a new one) BLANKED. Been there done that.

I always suggest buying two drives for BU, but that is more money.
Burn off to DVD? I have burned
DVDs and waited a long time to have them 'verified' only to put it
back in the computer and
have folders unable to be opened even though the DVD was still
in pristine condition. DVD is NOT 100% safe imo. Okay, so there's
that.

The P2 reader isn't free, and you need more P2 cards in order to
shoot over an hour on location. DLT BU drives are SLOW and on and on.

I think everyone should admit to themselves that moving up to HD
is going to COST more money. The higher the quality of the HD the
more money you can expect to spend. The Canon has HDV recording.
The Panny has a DV tape drive. ALL KINDS OF THINGS TO CONSIDER.
That is what is cool about talking it all over here. We are able to think
about what we do, need and have before jumping into the deep end of HD.

Federico Martini Crotti · September 21st, 2005, 05:59 PM

Can't HD-SDI record to an external, portable disk? Why does it have to be tape?

If you could record HD to a reasonably priced portable disk, then the best thing would be to copy from the portable to big desktop LaCie's from which you will edit, backing all up in more LaCie's which you will let rest in peace until you don't need that raw footage anymore. By that time, if those gigs that seemed a lot before, still mean something, you reuse them.

While touching wood in my desk, I can tell you that my 2TB of external LaCie's have never failed for almost 2 years of continuous work.

Barry Green · September 21st, 2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omar Saad

but one main point still confuses me on the HVX. Does it do true 1080 24p?

Yes.

Quote:

Is it truely progressive in the 1080 mode

Yes.

Quote:

or does it do some sort of "cineframe" pulldown or conversion?

No it doesn't. It's genuine progressive.

Quote:

I keep seeing it listed at 1080i 24p....is'nt that a contradiction?

No. It's exactly how it's handled on the DVX, SDX, SPX, and XL2 -- progressive frames, acquired progressively, are recorded within an interlaced data stream. Which can be captured and extracted to restore the original, pure 24P sequence.

Barry Green · September 21st, 2005, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico Martini Crotti

Can't HD-SDI record to an external, portable disk?

No; no such product yet exists. Could it theoretically someday? Sure, but at the data rates that are being discussed, it would take a large RAID of hard disks to handle it. You're talking about a data rate in the ballpark of 200 megabytes per second. Your storage space will also fly by at the rate of a gigabyte every five seconds. Storing uncompressed HD-SDI data on a portable disk isn't anywhere near practical right now.

Quote:

If you could record HD to a reasonably priced portable disk

Won't happen, if the data's uncompressed. You can record it to disk, but it won't be reasonably priced or portable, it'd be about $15,000worth of a desktop tower with an 8-hard-disk RAID.

Omar Saad · September 21st, 2005, 08:21 PM

Thanks Barry.

Sergio Perez · September 21st, 2005, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico Martini Crotti

Sergio,
check what Panasonic says in a global site:

"The AG-HVX200 inherits the VariCam's advanced functions and warm, rich expressivity. It allows 24P/30P(NTSC), 25p(PAL) progressive shooting in both 720p and 1080i recording, and it provides a Cine-like Gamma that captures images that are strikingly similar in tone to film."

Took this from this page:

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...200/index.html

As I read it it is both NTSC and PAL.

Federico, the camera unfortunatelly is region specific. One camera for Pal, other for NTSC.

This is unnacceptable, in my view. I simply can't understand this move, seeing how ALL the competition is opening the locks on the archaic region specific recording.

I really do agree with the fact that the camera XL-h1 not having a flipout lcd is a down factor. I really love recording with the lcd in the dvx100 for some handheld action shots, and different P.O.V. ( not to forget steadicam shots...)

However, HDV sure is an HD option, compared to P2 only HD and a mini-dv SD only tape drive.

And p2 price sure is expensive. It has the advantage of no capture and speedy file transfer, but that seems important more to a News gattering group than independent filmmakers.

I'm really not so sure about 25F/24F and how it works, but assuming it looks and moves like 24p/25p, and blows up nicely to film, this is indeed a plus for the PAL people to be able to record 24P compared to 25P.

And interchangeable lens, while not essential for movie making, is a plus. Better than adding an adaptor to the built in Lens (with an adaptor like the mini-35).

Well, I believe you guys in the US are lucky since both cameras are coming out in a similar time-frame, but here in PAL the HVX is only coming in March/April. That's 4 months latter than the US camera. That's a very long delay for the euro model. This Gives time for all the trouble shooting, workflow arrangements and stablishment of the new Canon Xl.

Jaime Valles · September 21st, 2005, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Perez

...And p2 price sure is expensive...

P2 is NOT the only way of recording HD on the HVX. You can get a Firestore hard disk for "less than $2000", making the grand total less than $8000 for full-out DVCProHD 1080/24p 4:2:2 at 1hr 30min at a time. The HVX + Firestore cost LESS than the stock XL H1.

To me, for independent filmmaking, the HVX + Firestore is much more bang for your buck.

September 21st, 2005, 03:19 AM	#1
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	I started a thread here saying that I was going for the HVX, because I loved my DVX, the way it handled and the results I got from the image. However, I feel this new Canon proposition to be a real contender this time. One of the main concerns I have is for the very long wait for a PAL release. I really don't understand that. More so, I really cannot feel happy for the fact the camera is locked for Pal and Ntsc- needing two different versions for these regions. The canon, while not offering immediate worldwide compatibility, asks you for a 500 dollar firmware update. Fair enough. The option is there. The HVX doesn't. In order to produce content for specific regions (and yes, you can convert in post, but you definetly lose something from the native format), you have to either buy 2 different region HVX's or do conversions in Post. The P2 ends up not being a big deal with the Firestore coming. However, it's coming in March, so at that time the canon should have been in the market for about 5 months. Probably a sdi capture device would have come up for the canon by then, or at least announced. I believe that with some scene file tuning the canon could give a similar picture compared to the Panasonic. However, I really do like my dvx, and I never liked the xl1- never tried an xl2, tough. This time around, I might go the other way. I do feel that the universal recording for the camera HAD to be implemented in the HVX. Because the competition just broke that barrier, and everyone is doing it. This is value for money. I feel that the existence of region specific hvx's is just a form of milking money. I sincerely hope that an announcement on this matter is done, specially with the PAL delay. Maybe this could prove a benefit in order to add these fundamental extra features? __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

September 21st, 2005, 09:54 AM	#3
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	The HVX200 has several advantages over the Canon XL H1 and other camcorders. Its smaller size and all-in-one form factor, lighter weight and its inherent portability will be a key point for some folks. The ability to remotely control focus and aperture via a pan-handle mounted lens controller will be another -- no other camera in this price range offers this, with the exception of the JVC GY-HD100 (but such controllers are twice as expensive for the HD100). The XL H1 allows remote control of focus and aperture over FireWire but it requires a PC laptop as the control interface. Both the HVX200 and the XL H1 will offer you the ability to record DVCPRO HD. But in the HVX, this capability is built right into the camera, through the removeable P2 flash memory. With the XL H1, you'll need to cable out to a DVCPRO HD deck on location, fine for studio work but a cumbersome and somewhat limited application in the field... not to mention the extra cost of the deck rental. Removeable P2 flash memory is in my opinion the single most important advantage of the HVX200. You can record 40 minutes of 720p DVCPRO HD at 24fps on the two 8GB cards in the camera, and you'll have a broad choice of various selectable frame rates in 720p. See my P2 companion site at www.p2info.net for more info. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 21st, 2005, 10:26 AM	#4
Matt Irwin Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 327	I own an XL1 and I love the form factor of both the 1 and the XL2; however, in this arguement, I'm leaning toward the HVX. The fact that Canon went with HDV took them down a peg or two in my book (i saw it coming, but I was still hoping otherwise). Most of the projects I'm on are low budget and costs are cut wherever possible. Having to rent an HD deck is money that a production would rather put toward what's going in front of the camera. As Chris mentioned above, the HVX does not need a deck to record HD. Other than that the HVX is a much better form for run-and-gun shooting, and would be much more manageable than the XL when used with non-P+S cinema lens converters like the Micro35 (that adapter with the XLH1, the XL lens, and a 35mm zoom and matte box would make a longer camera rig than a varicam! Not exactly tight-space friendly...) Also, having a real flip out screen as opposed to that novelty eyepiece/ monitor combo that Canon has would be really nice. Just my 2¢. __________________ Matt Irwin DP / matt.irwincine.com

September 21st, 2005, 05:59 PM	#9
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	There are good things and bad things about everything. Everyone keeps saying that renting a deck is too expensive, yet you will have to pony up $4K for the P2 cards. Then, how are you going to archive (or Back Up)? Firewire drives are cheap . . . so cheap they break without warning. A free repair on say a LaCie drive means they return it (or a new one) BLANKED. Been there done that. I always suggest buying two drives for BU, but that is more money. Burn off to DVD? I have burned DVDs and waited a long time to have them 'verified' only to put it back in the computer and have folders unable to be opened even though the DVD was still in pristine condition. DVD is NOT 100% safe imo. Okay, so there's that. The P2 reader isn't free, and you need more P2 cards in order to shoot over an hour on location. DLT BU drives are SLOW and on and on. I think everyone should admit to themselves that moving up to HD is going to COST more money. The higher the quality of the HD the more money you can expect to spend. The Canon has HDV recording. The Panny has a DV tape drive. ALL KINDS OF THINGS TO CONSIDER. That is what is cool about talking it all over here. We are able to think about what we do, need and have before jumping into the deep end of HD. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

September 21st, 2005, 09:05 AM	#2
Mike Medavoy Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 63	Speaking of the new Canon, what is the major advantage that the HVX200 might have over it? Recording in DVCPRO HD as opposed to HDV? Does Canon's uncompressed HD-SDI feature make a difference in this battle? Plus, Canon has again an interchangable lens... I own a DVX100A too, and I'm very happy about it. Wouldn't even compare it to the XL-1. So, I am not a Canon fan... But now it's time to seriously consider between these two cameras, and I was wondering what is the main reason that might push some of you to buy the HVX over the Canon. Thanks!

September 21st, 2005, 10:36 AM	#5
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	[QUOTE=Chris Hurd] Removeable P2 flash memory is in my opinion the single most important advantage of the HVX200.>>>> This is my number one favorite, "no tape" . I own a SD500 canon digital camera for carrying around. It shoots good video and and I can drop files straight into my computer. Just love it. So P2 is going to be a very refreshing change my production flow. Pappas

September 21st, 2005, 02:27 PM	#6
Federico Martini Crotti Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Uruguay Posts: 57	Sergio, check what Panasonic says in a global site: "The AG-HVX200 inherits the VariCam's advanced functions and warm, rich expressivity. It allows 24P/30P(NTSC), 25p(PAL) progressive shooting in both 720p and 1080i recording, and it provides a Cine-like Gamma that captures images that are strikingly similar in tone to film." Took this from this page: https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...200/index.html As I read it it is both NTSC and PAL.

September 21st, 2005, 05:04 PM	#7
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Both cameras appeal to different sectors. For quick set-up in the field the HVX is perfect. For studio environments or more static set-ups, the XLH1 is perfect. Both have cost advantages/disadvantages. P2 cards are portable but insanely expensive and must be re-used leaving no back up of the source. HD-SDI allows you to go to a deck and at $100 a tape it is less expensive and you have a back-up, however, the HD decks are EXTREMELY expensive. The camera does allow a low cost HDV option though that the HVX lacks. Until there is a reasonable, affordable workflow, neither will really take off. The HVX will sell a lot more but I venture to guess that most people will still be shooting SD with it for a while. I suspect most companies doing any HD stuff in studio or on location (sports, etc.) will add a couple XLH1's to their arsenal. ash =o)

September 21st, 2005, 05:26 PM	#8
Omar Saad Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA Posts: 38	I have been reading a lot of these posts, and perhaps this is'nt the post for this question, but one main point still confuses me on the HVX. Does it do true 1080 24p? Is it truely progressive in the 1080 mode or does it do some sort of "cineframe" pulldown or conversion? I keep seeing it listed at 1080i 24p....is'nt that a contradiction? Sorry if I am causing the discussion to take a big step back but I can't seem to find a good answer on to the question. Any clarification would be appreciated. thanks, Omar

September 21st, 2005, 08:21 PM	#13
Omar Saad Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA Posts: 38	Thanks Barry.