HVX200 vs. Z1 (FX1) for the simple guy

Dean Harrington · September 15th, 2005, 04:47 PM

Nothing will happen on any of these questions until the cam comes out. In general however, people are already using laptops for direct record in the field. It's cumbersome but it works. Soon, say by Nov/Dec ther will be laptops with 1900X1200 in regular use with the ability to record HD. Firestore is another possibility. So, let's just wait and see.

Barry Green · September 15th, 2005, 08:51 PM

If you're running a laptop with either Avid Express Pro HD or Apple's Final Cut Pro HD, then yes you could capture directly to the computer (no P2 card necessary). We're also anticipating that Serious Magic may produce a DVCPRO-HD-capable version of DV Rack. Any of those methods would allow you to avoid buying P2 cards (as would using the FireStore HVX-compatible product).

Betsy Moore · September 16th, 2005, 10:43 AM

Thanks, Barry, are there very long cords I could buy to keep the noise of the PowerMac (won't have a powerbook) away from the microphones? Do you think it's possible to keep the computer in the next room? Is there a qualitative limit to how long your cord should be (no jokes, please:)?

Barry Green · September 16th, 2005, 08:45 PM

Firewire cables are supposed to have a maximum length of 4.5 meters (around 15 feet). However, there are companies that make 30' and 75' cables, and with repeaters they've gotten them to over 225 feet. I have a Laird 30' firewire cable, and it's so far proven to be 100% reliable. So yes, with a 75' cable you could easily keep the computer in a separate room.

Heath McKnight · January 21st, 2006, 12:10 AM

Two things:

1. I'm excited about the HVX200, as the DVX100a is my favorite DV camera to use, but I love the Z1. Sure it doesn't shoot 24p and there are a couple of hoops to jump through, but out of all the HDV cameras (except the XL H1 which I haven't tried yet), the Z1 is the best in my opinion.

2. I'd like to see DV Rack for Mac one day.

heath

James Llewellyn · January 21st, 2006, 01:05 AM

No offense, but is there a reason you resurrected this 4 month dead topic?

Heath McKnight · January 21st, 2006, 01:10 AM

I came across it, why do you ask?

Chris Hurd · January 21st, 2006, 01:13 AM

Despite the interim, it's still topical. Where we draw the line is on two or three year old threads!

Kevin Shaw · January 21st, 2006, 01:25 AM

Personally I think Sony did a commendable job of delivering the first affordable HD cameras which were really worth talking about, and will soon have a complete range of rationally priced models from the HC1 to the XDCAM HD series. The HVX200 has some impressive features and will no doubt be widely popular, but sales won't match the Sonys because of both the initial cost and memory/workflow issues. And no matter what else the HVX200 has it's still a hand-held camera with a small sensor and a fixed lens, so it's not necessarily what professionals want in that sense.

Not that it really does much good to discuss this, but I don't see the HVX200 changing things all that much. I look forward to hearing more about it and seeing more sample footage, but to me it's more of a specialty item than a mainstream video camera. Call me when they ship the HVX300, recording H.264 at 25 Mbps to standard off-the-shelf flash memory cards!

:-)

Steven Thomas · January 21st, 2006, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

Call me when they ship the HVX300, recording H.264 at 25 Mbps to standard off-the-shelf flash memory cards!
:-)

I hope your not expecting a phone call anytime soon. :)

Robert Lane · January 21st, 2006, 09:37 AM

I agree with the original post: Barring the inability to record DVCPRO-HD to tape and the short record time to P2 cards, the HVX is a near-perfect sub-$10k body. Like I mentioned in another thread, the record times even to 8GB cards may be short, it still beats dealing with 11 minute film loads!

Those of us who have ordered one are on pins and needles waiting for it's arrival however, reading this post is a nice reminder that there are options to the HVX. Not as capable and further away from near-perfect to be sure (at least for my needs) but there are ways to make a Z1, H1 or others "look" like progressive footage. It's just more work and not as elegant a solution.

If the HVX looks to be further out than we're expecting I might even migrate our project "down" to DV and use the DVX-100B. At least it's 16:9 progressive, a DTE solution could easily be used (nNovia or Firestore) and have a fast workflow. I'd rather have that than mess with all the workarounds for HDV.

BUT... the best of all worlds would be to use the HVX, and so we wait.

Scott Anderson · January 21st, 2006, 09:45 AM

Anecdotal: At NAB 2004, when Sony was showing nothing more than a mockup Z-1 in a glass case, the party line was that the design wasn't locked yet, and that Sony was informally polling the NAB attenddes as to which features they wanted in the new camera. I came back to that part of the booth on several occasions and spoke to several different people. I always asked what the number one feature request was, and the answer always came back the same: 24p. I can't imagine what happened. Did Sony never get the message? Was the design locked around certain components long before feedback from "us"? Was Sony protecting the CineAlta product line by hobbling the FX/Z-1? Whatever happened, Jim nailed it when he said Sony opened up a huge door in the market that Panasonic is now driving the semi-truck of the HVX200 through.

Also, I'm so very glad this thread was ressurected, as I missed it the first time around. I find it highly amusing and more than a little ironic how people treated Jim Jannard before we all knew who he was, and what he was up to. I, too might have assumed Jim was just a corporate video producer, instead of the crazy maverick behind Red. It's really encouraging that Jim identifies himself so strongly with the "under $10,000 crowd", and titles the post "for the simple guy". That just reinforces my sense that Jim is a real stand-up guy, and down-to-earth, despite the lofty goals of the Red camera.

Whatever Jim does to push the industry forward, sooner or later we'll all benefit from his efforts, and dvinfo is lucky to have him around.

Heath McKnight · January 21st, 2006, 09:56 AM

My guess, maybe Sony is trying to protect their F900 line--it's extremely successful for them. I hear people "kicking" the Z1 around, but it's been a wonderful camera for many of us. Of course, I don't usually judge a camera until I use one, so I couldn't say the HVX200 is the best thing yet, because I haven't even seen one in person. Same with the XL H1.

heath

Boyd Ostroff · January 21st, 2006, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Anderson

Anecdotal: I always asked what the number one feature request was, and the answer always came back the same: 24p. I can't imagine what happened.

Since we hang out in places like DVinfo where a lot of people are aspiring filmakers, I suspect that may give us a slanted vision of the larger world. My guess is that while 24p might be a "make it or break it" factor for many of us, the market is really very small in terms of the overall camcorder universe. Sony is also positioning the FX1 as a high end consumer camera, and from what I've read it has sold very well. They have also sold a lot of Z1's to ENG types. I'd be very surprised if Panasonic sold nearly as many HVX's since the market for them is pretty narrow.

So it was probably a simple economic decision that developing high res progressive CCD's wasn't worth it for the additional sales it might generate. And anyway, in their mind I'll bet they think they addressed the 24p requests by including the cf24 mode :-)

Kurth Bousman · January 21st, 2006, 01:26 PM

...not trying to start a whole new war and I love the z1 w/o progressive but if I had an aaton a minima and money was no object , I'd still be shooting film. If someone shoots an indie and they're going film out , they only need to shoot 60i- filmout will give a great 24fps. There was a test of filmout between the pd150 and dvx- no one could tell the difference is how I remember it. The same will hold true for filmout between the z1 and hvx I venture to say. And as long as the delivery is sd dvds' then it doesn't matter - the whole 24p thing 'cause post will look as good . However what is totally cool about the hvx is variable frame rate shooting. Something that , besides the varicam , only film cameras could do. That's what I'm waiting to see . I'd like to know if the rate can be changed midstream, while shooting , for example ? I still shoot 100 ft. rolls in my beaulieu to do some effects that are much better done in a variable rate film camera than in post. In Mexico , getting telecines is difficult . That's why the pany is interesting for me and I consider myself pretty simple - I don't use a car for example but I used to love my Oakleys' before my dogs ate them ( Jim could you work on that - it appears they are quite tasty) Kurth

September 15th, 2005, 04:47 PM	#16
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	Betsy.... Nothing will happen on any of these questions until the cam comes out. In general however, people are already using laptops for direct record in the field. It's cumbersome but it works. Soon, say by Nov/Dec ther will be laptops with 1900X1200 in regular use with the ability to record HD. Firestore is another possibility. So, let's just wait and see.

January 21st, 2006, 12:10 AM	#20
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Two things: 1. I'm excited about the HVX200, as the DVX100a is my favorite DV camera to use, but I love the Z1. Sure it doesn't shoot 24p and there are a couple of hoops to jump through, but out of all the HDV cameras (except the XL H1 which I haven't tried yet), the Z1 is the best in my opinion. 2. I'd like to see DV Rack for Mac one day. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 21st, 2006, 01:10 AM	#22
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I came across it, why do you ask? __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 21st, 2006, 01:13 AM	#23
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Despite the interim, it's still topical. Where we draw the line is on two or three year old threads! __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 21st, 2006, 09:56 AM	#28
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	My guess, maybe Sony is trying to protect their F900 line--it's extremely successful for them. I hear people "kicking" the Z1 around, but it's been a wonderful camera for many of us. Of course, I don't usually judge a camera until I use one, so I couldn't say the HVX200 is the best thing yet, because I haven't even seen one in person. Same with the XL H1. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

September 15th, 2005, 08:51 PM	#17
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	If you're running a laptop with either Avid Express Pro HD or Apple's Final Cut Pro HD, then yes you could capture directly to the computer (no P2 card necessary). We're also anticipating that Serious Magic may produce a DVCPRO-HD-capable version of DV Rack. Any of those methods would allow you to avoid buying P2 cards (as would using the FireStore HVX-compatible product).

September 16th, 2005, 10:43 AM	#18
Betsy Moore Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 444	Thanks, Barry, are there very long cords I could buy to keep the noise of the PowerMac (won't have a powerbook) away from the microphones? Do you think it's possible to keep the computer in the next room? Is there a qualitative limit to how long your cord should be (no jokes, please:)?

September 16th, 2005, 08:45 PM	#19
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Firewire cables are supposed to have a maximum length of 4.5 meters (around 15 feet). However, there are companies that make 30' and 75' cables, and with repeaters they've gotten them to over 225 feet. I have a Laird 30' firewire cable, and it's so far proven to be 100% reliable. So yes, with a 75' cable you could easily keep the computer in a separate room.

January 21st, 2006, 01:05 AM	#21
James Llewellyn Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 80	No offense, but is there a reason you resurrected this 4 month dead topic?

January 21st, 2006, 01:25 AM	#24
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Personally I think Sony did a commendable job of delivering the first affordable HD cameras which were really worth talking about, and will soon have a complete range of rationally priced models from the HC1 to the XDCAM HD series. The HVX200 has some impressive features and will no doubt be widely popular, but sales won't match the Sonys because of both the initial cost and memory/workflow issues. And no matter what else the HVX200 has it's still a hand-held camera with a small sensor and a fixed lens, so it's not necessarily what professionals want in that sense. Not that it really does much good to discuss this, but I don't see the HVX200 changing things all that much. I look forward to hearing more about it and seeing more sample footage, but to me it's more of a specialty item than a mainstream video camera. Call me when they ship the HVX300, recording H.264 at 25 Mbps to standard off-the-shelf flash memory cards! :-)

January 21st, 2006, 09:37 AM	#26
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,825 Images: 15	I agree with the original post: Barring the inability to record DVCPRO-HD to tape and the short record time to P2 cards, the HVX is a near-perfect sub-$10k body. Like I mentioned in another thread, the record times even to 8GB cards may be short, it still beats dealing with 11 minute film loads! Those of us who have ordered one are on pins and needles waiting for it's arrival however, reading this post is a nice reminder that there are options to the HVX. Not as capable and further away from near-perfect to be sure (at least for my needs) but there are ways to make a Z1, H1 or others "look" like progressive footage. It's just more work and not as elegant a solution. If the HVX looks to be further out than we're expecting I might even migrate our project "down" to DV and use the DVX-100B. At least it's 16:9 progressive, a DTE solution could easily be used (nNovia or Firestore) and have a fast workflow. I'd rather have that than mess with all the workarounds for HDV. BUT... the best of all worlds would be to use the HVX, and so we wait.

January 21st, 2006, 09:45 AM	#27
Scott Anderson Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 327	Anecdotal: At NAB 2004, when Sony was showing nothing more than a mockup Z-1 in a glass case, the party line was that the design wasn't locked yet, and that Sony was informally polling the NAB attenddes as to which features they wanted in the new camera. I came back to that part of the booth on several occasions and spoke to several different people. I always asked what the number one feature request was, and the answer always came back the same: 24p. I can't imagine what happened. Did Sony never get the message? Was the design locked around certain components long before feedback from "us"? Was Sony protecting the CineAlta product line by hobbling the FX/Z-1? Whatever happened, Jim nailed it when he said Sony opened up a huge door in the market that Panasonic is now driving the semi-truck of the HVX200 through. Also, I'm so very glad this thread was ressurected, as I missed it the first time around. I find it highly amusing and more than a little ironic how people treated Jim Jannard before we all knew who he was, and what he was up to. I, too might have assumed Jim was just a corporate video producer, instead of the crazy maverick behind Red. It's really encouraging that Jim identifies himself so strongly with the "under $10,000 crowd", and titles the post "for the simple guy". That just reinforces my sense that Jim is a real stand-up guy, and down-to-earth, despite the lofty goals of the Red camera. Whatever Jim does to push the industry forward, sooner or later we'll all benefit from his efforts, and dvinfo is lucky to have him around.

January 21st, 2006, 01:26 PM	#30
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	...not trying to start a whole new war and I love the z1 w/o progressive but if I had an aaton a minima and money was no object , I'd still be shooting film. If someone shoots an indie and they're going film out , they only need to shoot 60i- filmout will give a great 24fps. There was a test of filmout between the pd150 and dvx- no one could tell the difference is how I remember it. The same will hold true for filmout between the z1 and hvx I venture to say. And as long as the delivery is sd dvds' then it doesn't matter - the whole 24p thing 'cause post will look as good . However what is totally cool about the hvx is variable frame rate shooting. Something that , besides the varicam , only film cameras could do. That's what I'm waiting to see . I'd like to know if the rate can be changed midstream, while shooting , for example ? I still shoot 100 ft. rolls in my beaulieu to do some effects that are much better done in a variable rate film camera than in post. In Mexico , getting telecines is difficult . That's why the pany is interesting for me and I consider myself pretty simple - I don't use a car for example but I used to love my Oakleys' before my dogs ate them ( Jim could you work on that - it appears they are quite tasty) Kurth