Post Production Choices at DVinfo.net

Marty Baggen · August 17th, 2005, 12:27 PM

Leitch is going to release a software only NLE which will recognize the MXF. Does it further need compatibility with the DVCPro codec as well to work with HVX200 material?

Since the P2 workflow is a data dump instead of capture, in theory, a software-only NLE should "work", not-withstanding the intensive processing required to work with any sort of HD.

My current Leitch hardware is of course SD, but it seems that any HD distribution is going to be a software output, at least for the near future?

Peter Richardson · August 17th, 2005, 04:09 PM

Hey Marty! Funny running into you on the board (this is the Peter from Corvallis) but congrats on finding this one--it is fantastic! To answer your question, I don't think any software only NLE that is compatible with MXF files will cut DVCProHD footage. I believe any compatible NLE will expressly state whether it is able to cut this footage (or DVCPro ftg for that matter). A few options out right now: Avid Xpress Pro HD (PC only right now) the main advantage being that you can mix DVXProHD, HDV, and many other footage resolutions all in the same timeline, Final Cut HD, I think Sony Vegas, and some others. If the Leitch system you describe can do it, it will probably say so expressly somewhere in the literature. Let me know if you get the HVX200 and we'll have dueling cameras. Take care,

Peter

Marty Baggen · August 17th, 2005, 04:21 PM

Peter,

I've seen your name on the board for some time and wondered if it was you. Great to hear from you.

So have you made a camera decision as of yet?

P2 is a great concept, but for feature work, the workflow poses a challenge. Certainly better than loading film, but a serious task to keep those cards ready for new footage. Anything as fragile as laptops and card readers in the field is something to be very wary of.

It will probably make sense for me to eventually add another NLE, but with virtually no demand for HD from my clients, I can make a slow transition to something new. Plus, it will be hard to give up the results I am getting in SD with my 2/3" camera.

If the HVX can come close to replicating my SD material, then tapeless portability could be the norm around here with the HVX.

If the HVX offers a path to 35mm blowup comparable to Super 16, then the hassles that will be avoided with conventional film production will be tremendous.

Let's get a coffee sometime!

Brian Petersen · August 17th, 2005, 05:44 PM

"If the HVX offers a path to 35mm blowup comparable to Super 16, then the hassles that will be avoided with conventional film production will be tremendous."

Are the HVX and Super16 comparable in terms of resolution? Obviously the color, dof, etc inherent in video vs. film still applies, but is the HD image on the HVC comparable to Super16 for resolution? I don't know much about comparing video to film, but I'm sure someone does here. Can the HVX be stacked up in comparson to 16mm and 35mm or is it simply apples and oranges?

Mathieu Ghekiere · August 17th, 2005, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Petersen

"If the HVX offers a path to 35mm blowup comparable to Super 16, then the hassles that will be avoided with conventional film production will be tremendous."

Are the HVX and Super16 comparable in terms of resolution? Obviously the color, dof, etc inherent in video vs. film still applies, but is the HD image on the HVC comparable to Super16 for resolution? I don't know much about comparing video to film, but I'm sure someone does here. Can the HVX be stacked up in comparson to 16mm and 35mm or is it simply apples and oranges?

Hi Brian,

I posed this question a couple of months ago, here you have the thread, don't know if it's valuable for you:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43649

Best regards,

Peter Richardson · August 17th, 2005, 06:19 PM

Hey Marty--Yes, we def. need to continue this virtual conversation over a cup of coffee some time. My dec. on cameras was basically made the second Panasonic announced this camera. I think that it actually does live up to the hype (saying this, of course, before we've actually SEEN the images it produces...but if the DVX is any indication, we should be in good hands) as a revolutionary camera. To answer your question about 35mm outs, and whether it's superior shooting this camera (assuming we are talking 720P or 1080p modes here, of course) to 16mm, I would say the answer will probably be yes. The reason I say this if from reading about the experiences of companies like efilm and others, who regularly do both blow-ups and dv to film transfers, and how even the DV footage is comparable to, and in some cases better than, 16mm when blown up to 35mm. Keep in mind, of course, this is only DV we are talking here, so presumably DVCProHD will be even better.

If constant card switching is a concern, especially if you're shooting 1080, I think the Firestore, or other hard drive based storage solutions will be the answer--especially if you don't mind having a little bulkier rig, which on feature work usually isn't an issue (unless you're running and gunning it).

Your point about clients not demanding HD is well-taken--but keep in mind, consumer HD DVD players will start hitting the market for Christmas this year, so it won't be long before clients are asking for HD content more frequently. I'm doing a lot of work for Microsoft these days (sorry for the name-drop) and I know they'd love to have HD Windows Media files delivered instead of SD, so think of this angle as well (not to mention Quicktime delivery).

CCD size is def. a drawback compared to your betacam, that's for sure, not to mention the kind of results you get from an over the shoulder cam vs. a hand held cam. However, the HVX200 will shoot DVCPro50, which is an equivalent standard to DigiBeta (basically Panasonic's version of it) so from a data rate viewpoint, the results will be equal. But you won't get the shallower depth of field you have with your 2/3" CCD's.

OK, so now I sound like a Panasonic rep...but let's get coffee some time anyway!

Peter

Brian Petersen · August 17th, 2005, 06:20 PM

Mathieu,

Thanks for the link!

Marty Baggen · August 17th, 2005, 08:54 PM

Peter,

The critical element in the 35mm equation is not so much the format, but the optics. Don't forget that EFilm is in the business of blowing up people's product.... when a good percentage of indie & doc filmmakers are out there with SD DV, they are going to paint a flattering picture so to speak. We eventually used them, and they did a great job, so nothing against them.

All things being equal, my DV camera can match most of what a super 16mm Arri can produce, that's probably true,..... but my $10,000 lens, compared to a $30,000 lens on the Arri is going to blow my DV image out of the water. Put another way, if you could jam a DV recorder into the Arri, you'd end up with some impressive footage.

Put that in the context of the Panny.... maybe $1,500 worth of lens? 95% of my day-to-day work will be handled perfectly by the HVX, don't get me wrong, I'm buying one,.... but as far as getting the equivalent of 16mm (with the optics that accompany such acquisition) with the HVX, I will have to see it to believe it.

Prior to distribution, the film went through a frame-by-frame quality control inspection for Warner Bros. If any aspiring indie filmmaker wants to have their will tested.... just endure one of those reports. I would have hated to go through that process without the benefit of a colorist, professional expertise and telecine equipment for our transfers. Those are QC steps along the way that are lost when shooting to video.

Good points on the HD distribution. As with most video revolutions, and I say this quite seriously, many have been on the sidelines awaiting to see what the porn industry does! God, I need to get a real job!

Call me... of course now that you are rich and famous and climbing the ladder at Microsoft, you probably lost my number! First coffee is on me.

Edwin Hernandez · August 17th, 2005, 11:11 PM

I read in the HD100 forum that there's a problem with Final Cut 5 and HDV 720/24p. Will HVX be having that same kind of problems with DVCPROHD 1080/24p or DVCPROHD 720/24p or is it something already well handled by Final Cut?
/EDWIN

Kevin Dooley · August 18th, 2005, 06:26 AM

From what I understand, and I've never actually used DVCPRO HD, but it's tried and true on both FCP and Avid... it's been around 4 or 5 years already and most of the kinks of the post workflow have been worked out. The only thing that might cause problems are the P2, but then again, that's also been around for a year or more on the SDX 800 (I think) and again, FCP and Avid already offer support for it...

Edwin Hernandez · August 18th, 2005, 03:03 PM

Kevin, but as I understand, DVCPROHD from the Varicam is 720p, not 1080p. I'm not sure about it. But the HVX200 do record 1080/24p in DVCPROHD.

Kevin Dooley · August 18th, 2005, 03:07 PM

True, the Varicam only does 720p, but the HDX 400 shoots 1080i, and the 1080p modes on the HVX 200 are going to be imbeded in a 1080i stream, just like DV... so I can't imagine it bringing up too many problems...

August 17th, 2005, 12:27 PM	#1
Marty Baggen Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: monroe, or Posts: 572	Post Production Choices Leitch is going to release a software only NLE which will recognize the MXF. Does it further need compatibility with the DVCPro codec as well to work with HVX200 material? Since the P2 workflow is a data dump instead of capture, in theory, a software-only NLE should "work", not-withstanding the intensive processing required to work with any sort of HD. My current Leitch hardware is of course SD, but it seems that any HD distribution is going to be a software output, at least for the near future?

August 18th, 2005, 06:26 AM	#10
Kevin Dooley Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 414	From what I understand, and I've never actually used DVCPRO HD, but it's tried and true on both FCP and Avid... it's been around 4 or 5 years already and most of the kinks of the post workflow have been worked out. The only thing that might cause problems are the P2, but then again, that's also been around for a year or more on the SDX 800 (I think) and again, FCP and Avid already offer support for it... __________________ Kevin Dooley Media Director, Pantego Bible Church

August 18th, 2005, 03:07 PM	#12
Kevin Dooley Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 414	True, the Varicam only does 720p, but the HDX 400 shoots 1080i, and the 1080p modes on the HVX 200 are going to be imbeded in a 1080i stream, just like DV... so I can't imagine it bringing up too many problems... __________________ Kevin Dooley Media Director, Pantego Bible Church

August 17th, 2005, 04:09 PM	#2
Peter Richardson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 608	Hey Marty! Funny running into you on the board (this is the Peter from Corvallis) but congrats on finding this one--it is fantastic! To answer your question, I don't think any software only NLE that is compatible with MXF files will cut DVCProHD footage. I believe any compatible NLE will expressly state whether it is able to cut this footage (or DVCPro ftg for that matter). A few options out right now: Avid Xpress Pro HD (PC only right now) the main advantage being that you can mix DVXProHD, HDV, and many other footage resolutions all in the same timeline, Final Cut HD, I think Sony Vegas, and some others. If the Leitch system you describe can do it, it will probably say so expressly somewhere in the literature. Let me know if you get the HVX200 and we'll have dueling cameras. Take care, Peter

August 17th, 2005, 04:21 PM	#3
Marty Baggen Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: monroe, or Posts: 572	Peter, I've seen your name on the board for some time and wondered if it was you. Great to hear from you. So have you made a camera decision as of yet? P2 is a great concept, but for feature work, the workflow poses a challenge. Certainly better than loading film, but a serious task to keep those cards ready for new footage. Anything as fragile as laptops and card readers in the field is something to be very wary of. It will probably make sense for me to eventually add another NLE, but with virtually no demand for HD from my clients, I can make a slow transition to something new. Plus, it will be hard to give up the results I am getting in SD with my 2/3" camera. If the HVX can come close to replicating my SD material, then tapeless portability could be the norm around here with the HVX. If the HVX offers a path to 35mm blowup comparable to Super 16, then the hassles that will be avoided with conventional film production will be tremendous. Let's get a coffee sometime!

August 17th, 2005, 05:44 PM	#4
Brian Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 62	"If the HVX offers a path to 35mm blowup comparable to Super 16, then the hassles that will be avoided with conventional film production will be tremendous." Are the HVX and Super16 comparable in terms of resolution? Obviously the color, dof, etc inherent in video vs. film still applies, but is the HD image on the HVC comparable to Super16 for resolution? I don't know much about comparing video to film, but I'm sure someone does here. Can the HVX be stacked up in comparson to 16mm and 35mm or is it simply apples and oranges?

August 17th, 2005, 06:19 PM	#6
Peter Richardson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 608	Hey Marty--Yes, we def. need to continue this virtual conversation over a cup of coffee some time. My dec. on cameras was basically made the second Panasonic announced this camera. I think that it actually does live up to the hype (saying this, of course, before we've actually SEEN the images it produces...but if the DVX is any indication, we should be in good hands) as a revolutionary camera. To answer your question about 35mm outs, and whether it's superior shooting this camera (assuming we are talking 720P or 1080p modes here, of course) to 16mm, I would say the answer will probably be yes. The reason I say this if from reading about the experiences of companies like efilm and others, who regularly do both blow-ups and dv to film transfers, and how even the DV footage is comparable to, and in some cases better than, 16mm when blown up to 35mm. Keep in mind, of course, this is only DV we are talking here, so presumably DVCProHD will be even better. If constant card switching is a concern, especially if you're shooting 1080, I think the Firestore, or other hard drive based storage solutions will be the answer--especially if you don't mind having a little bulkier rig, which on feature work usually isn't an issue (unless you're running and gunning it). Your point about clients not demanding HD is well-taken--but keep in mind, consumer HD DVD players will start hitting the market for Christmas this year, so it won't be long before clients are asking for HD content more frequently. I'm doing a lot of work for Microsoft these days (sorry for the name-drop) and I know they'd love to have HD Windows Media files delivered instead of SD, so think of this angle as well (not to mention Quicktime delivery). CCD size is def. a drawback compared to your betacam, that's for sure, not to mention the kind of results you get from an over the shoulder cam vs. a hand held cam. However, the HVX200 will shoot DVCPro50, which is an equivalent standard to DigiBeta (basically Panasonic's version of it) so from a data rate viewpoint, the results will be equal. But you won't get the shallower depth of field you have with your 2/3" CCD's. OK, so now I sound like a Panasonic rep...but let's get coffee some time anyway! Peter

August 17th, 2005, 06:20 PM	#7
Brian Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 62	Mathieu, Thanks for the link!

August 17th, 2005, 08:54 PM	#8
Marty Baggen Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: monroe, or Posts: 572	Peter, The critical element in the 35mm equation is not so much the format, but the optics. Don't forget that EFilm is in the business of blowing up people's product.... when a good percentage of indie & doc filmmakers are out there with SD DV, they are going to paint a flattering picture so to speak. We eventually used them, and they did a great job, so nothing against them. All things being equal, my DV camera can match most of what a super 16mm Arri can produce, that's probably true,..... but my $10,000 lens, compared to a $30,000 lens on the Arri is going to blow my DV image out of the water. Put another way, if you could jam a DV recorder into the Arri, you'd end up with some impressive footage. Put that in the context of the Panny.... maybe $1,500 worth of lens? 95% of my day-to-day work will be handled perfectly by the HVX, don't get me wrong, I'm buying one,.... but as far as getting the equivalent of 16mm (with the optics that accompany such acquisition) with the HVX, I will have to see it to believe it. Prior to distribution, the film went through a frame-by-frame quality control inspection for Warner Bros. If any aspiring indie filmmaker wants to have their will tested.... just endure one of those reports. I would have hated to go through that process without the benefit of a colorist, professional expertise and telecine equipment for our transfers. Those are QC steps along the way that are lost when shooting to video. Good points on the HD distribution. As with most video revolutions, and I say this quite seriously, many have been on the sidelines awaiting to see what the porn industry does! God, I need to get a real job! Call me... of course now that you are rich and famous and climbing the ladder at Microsoft, you probably lost my number! First coffee is on me.

August 17th, 2005, 11:11 PM	#9
Edwin Hernandez Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Panama City, Panama Posts: 162	I read in the HD100 forum that there's a problem with Final Cut 5 and HDV 720/24p. Will HVX be having that same kind of problems with DVCPROHD 1080/24p or DVCPROHD 720/24p or is it something already well handled by Final Cut? /EDWIN

August 18th, 2005, 03:03 PM	#11
Edwin Hernandez Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Panama City, Panama Posts: 162	Kevin, but as I understand, DVCPROHD from the Varicam is 720p, not 1080p. I'm not sure about it. But the HVX200 do record 1080/24p in DVCPROHD.