370 doesn't meet PBS requirements?

Philip Fass · January 3rd, 2011, 01:50 PM

David, the answer to you last question is "cost". If I had the money, I'd buy something 5x as expensive with a shoulder-mount form factor. Or rent, though the nearest rental house is at least 5 hours' drive away.

Still, I've been finding information that seems to indicate a 370 would not leave my production DOA at PBS. Check out this thread and article:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...ional-pbs.html

Users Reports | Broadcast and Professional AV

The above look pretty encouraging to me. Are they wrong or misleading in some way?

David Heath · January 3rd, 2011, 06:00 PM

Two sides to the answer, Philip.

My previous post was more referring to it from a designers perspective in the future, not such as yourself. If it was going to cost (say) $6,000 and $7,000 respectively to engineer a given standard of camera for 1/2" and 1/3", then why bother with 1/3"? And that seems a bit the case with the XF305 - they've engineered their way out of some of the 1/3" pitfalls, but ended up with a more expensive camera than the EX. Why not just go for 1/2" and keep things simple?

In terms of cost, I'm also looking at a new camera around the HPX371 price point, and have come to the conclusion that the Sony PMW320 is better overall. The only exception seems to be codec - but it's possible to use an external recorder like a nanoFlash and get a "fully approved" package. You can't add an external chipset to the 371!

As far as your own situation goes, the only people who can definitively answer it are the intended client. You need to ask them, and for the reasons Alister gives I wouldn't try to just do the filming and hope for the best. They may give dispensation to use the 371, insist you use something else, or approve conditional use (such as it may only be used at 0dB). They may also only be prepared to pay a lower rate. (If you'd employed a builder, agreed a rate, then found he was using lower quality materials than specified in the original contract, ask yourself how you'd feel.)

Philip Fass · January 4th, 2011, 08:38 AM

I should explain that the video would be offered to them after it's completed, and would be appropriate for a show like Independent Lens. It's not destined for anything like Nova, Masterpiece, or Great Performances.

The only tech info for IL says that cameras need to adhere to the same specs as any other PBS show -- 3-sensors, 1/2 inch or more -- but I bet some have been done with lower-cost equipment.

David Heath · January 4th, 2011, 05:42 PM

The company should still be able to offer guidance. Be very careful about going by what previous productions have used. The point about "approved camera" lists is that anyone can go ahead and use one in the list and not worry about it. They don't mean other cameras will NEVER be allowed, but could mean it will be on a case by case basis. So camera A may get approval for one programme (if it filled a special need), but not for another programme.

I wouldn't risk just going ahead and hoping for the best. If they say "no" to the 371, better to have to spend a bit more money and get it shown, than risk having it turned down after you've put a lot of time and money in.

Philip Fass · January 5th, 2011, 06:25 AM

For my needs, it must be shoulder-mount. Which takes me to the PMW-320 if I want the most affordable PBS-safe camera.. I don't think there's much else in that price range.

Brian Drysdale · January 5th, 2011, 11:00 AM

I guess the 1/3" could be foolproof focus wise for the PAs and researchers who can be the person doing the shooting.

Gary Nattrass · January 5th, 2011, 03:06 PM

Brian you must mean secretaries/media students that are doing the shooting? as that is what I have found!

Brian Drysdale · January 5th, 2011, 03:21 PM

It doesn't surprise me.

Philip Fass · January 5th, 2011, 03:28 PM

Gary, sorry I'm not savvy enough to understand your comment about secretaries and media students. Could you explain?

Brian Drysdale · January 5th, 2011, 03:36 PM

Rather than hiring a camera person they use researchers, secretaries and media students (I assume on work experience) to shoot material on some television programmes.

Gary Nattrass · January 6th, 2011, 03:30 AM

Yes as Brian says, why pay a huge amount for a cameraperson when you can get anyone to hand in the office to operate it these days.

I was in the local ITV network station before christmas and the journalist (media student) was very proud that she had her one day camera training course and was raring to get out with her lovely new Z5

Claire Buckley · January 6th, 2011, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Gary: ...the journalist (media student) was very proud that she had her one day camera training course and was raring to get out with her lovely new Z5

Don't some old geriatricts just hate the excited ambition of youth :)

I'm sure she'll do a great job with her Z5.

So how did you make the transition from the Sound Department to Video Camera Gary? Bet you just went out and did it, probably without the benefit of a training course.

Come on, give "students" and those trying to learn a craft, trade, call it what you will a break as your first client did for you :)

Brian Drysdale · January 6th, 2011, 11:39 AM

The main question might be is she replacing a trained video journalist in the production of the regional news or is she involved on a project as part of her training time at the company? By a project I would mean a one or two news items that may or may not be transmitted as part of the student getting experience in the work environment.

If they are replacing someone's job, it's an opportunity for no one, because there is no prospect for future employment. Trainees should always be supernumerary to the normal staffing levels. I'm saying this having allowed trainees (having been trainee on a couple of feature films) to work the grade on well funded shorts - part of the funding brief being training.

Claire Buckley · January 6th, 2011, 12:50 PM

My apologies to Philip the OP and others for jumping in as it appears this has taken the thread a little off topic.

Brian I bet you've still got your old ACTT union card?

My main point was I didn't find Gary's passive-aggressive post about young people with Z5s who he defined as secretaries and media students contributed anything to this thread. And it appears I'm not the only one either.

And by the way, the last secretary I know of old ended up the MD (CEO) of a very very large multinational TV Network. So who knows will emerge from an opportunity, perhaps the female media student with her lovely shiney Z5.

I'm done.

:)

Gary Nattrass · January 6th, 2011, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claire Buckley

Don't some old geriatricts just hate the excited ambition of youth :)

I'm sure she'll do a great job with her Z5.

So how did you make the transition from the Sound Department to Video Camera Gary? Bet you just went out and did it, probably without the benefit of a training course.

Come on, give "students" and those trying to learn a craft, trade, call it what you will a break as your first client did for you :)

Ha ha yes fine then all you 44,000 media students can work for minimum wage and let ITV make all their staff redundant, no doubt in time like most of them they will get sick of working for nothing and go and do something else.

This same journalist (media student) was also complaining that she got paid nothing and even worse old git's like me had no time to teach them how to do it properly! Sorry I work for me now not as ITV's training dept!

Yes I was young once and great people taught me to do it right and allowed me to progress but I didn't then crap on them to further my own career. Even more important is that the Z5 is being chosen by people (secretaries) who no longer have the technical expertise to assess camera's for broadcast, it is all being done to be as cheap as possible and not to help media students or anyone else who wishes to really further their career.

Oh and besides I have done photography and camerawork as a hobby for longer than the sound work but as I still enjoy it after 30 years I do it and learn something new everyday.

Rant over and I'll get me coat!

January 5th, 2011, 03:06 PM	#22
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	Brian you must mean secretaries/media students that are doing the shooting? as that is what I have found! __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

January 6th, 2011, 03:30 AM	#26
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	Yes as Brian says, why pay a huge amount for a cameraperson when you can get anyone to hand in the office to operate it these days. I was in the local ITV network station before christmas and the journalist (media student) was very proud that she had her one day camera training course and was raring to get out with her lovely new Z5 __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

January 6th, 2011, 12:50 PM	#29
Claire Buckley Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 176	My apologies to Philip the OP and others for jumping in as it appears this has taken the thread a little off topic. Brian I bet you've still got your old ACTT union card? My main point was I didn't find Gary's passive-aggressive post about young people with Z5s who he defined as secretaries and media students contributed anything to this thread. And it appears I'm not the only one either. And by the way, the last secretary I know of old ended up the MD (CEO) of a very very large multinational TV Network. So who knows will emerge from an opportunity, perhaps the female media student with her lovely shiney Z5. I'm done. :) __________________ Women don't hit harder, they just hit lower!

January 3rd, 2011, 01:50 PM	#16
Philip Fass Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Charlotte, VT Posts: 397	David, the answer to you last question is "cost". If I had the money, I'd buy something 5x as expensive with a shoulder-mount form factor. Or rent, though the nearest rental house is at least 5 hours' drive away. Still, I've been finding information that seems to indicate a 370 would not leave my production DOA at PBS. Check out this thread and article: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...ional-pbs.html Users Reports \| Broadcast and Professional AV The above look pretty encouraging to me. Are they wrong or misleading in some way?

January 3rd, 2011, 06:00 PM	#17
David Heath Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,699	Two sides to the answer, Philip. My previous post was more referring to it from a designers perspective in the future, not such as yourself. If it was going to cost (say) $6,000 and $7,000 respectively to engineer a given standard of camera for 1/2" and 1/3", then why bother with 1/3"? And that seems a bit the case with the XF305 - they've engineered their way out of some of the 1/3" pitfalls, but ended up with a more expensive camera than the EX. Why not just go for 1/2" and keep things simple? In terms of cost, I'm also looking at a new camera around the HPX371 price point, and have come to the conclusion that the Sony PMW320 is better overall. The only exception seems to be codec - but it's possible to use an external recorder like a nanoFlash and get a "fully approved" package. You can't add an external chipset to the 371! As far as your own situation goes, the only people who can definitively answer it are the intended client. You need to ask them, and for the reasons Alister gives I wouldn't try to just do the filming and hope for the best. They may give dispensation to use the 371, insist you use something else, or approve conditional use (such as it may only be used at 0dB). They may also only be prepared to pay a lower rate. (If you'd employed a builder, agreed a rate, then found he was using lower quality materials than specified in the original contract, ask yourself how you'd feel.)

January 4th, 2011, 08:38 AM	#18
Philip Fass Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Charlotte, VT Posts: 397	I should explain that the video would be offered to them after it's completed, and would be appropriate for a show like Independent Lens. It's not destined for anything like Nova, Masterpiece, or Great Performances. The only tech info for IL says that cameras need to adhere to the same specs as any other PBS show -- 3-sensors, 1/2 inch or more -- but I bet some have been done with lower-cost equipment.

January 4th, 2011, 05:42 PM	#19
David Heath Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,699	The company should still be able to offer guidance. Be very careful about going by what previous productions have used. The point about "approved camera" lists is that anyone can go ahead and use one in the list and not worry about it. They don't mean other cameras will NEVER be allowed, but could mean it will be on a case by case basis. So camera A may get approval for one programme (if it filled a special need), but not for another programme. I wouldn't risk just going ahead and hoping for the best. If they say "no" to the 371, better to have to spend a bit more money and get it shown, than risk having it turned down after you've put a lot of time and money in.

January 5th, 2011, 06:25 AM	#20
Philip Fass Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Charlotte, VT Posts: 397	For my needs, it must be shoulder-mount. Which takes me to the PMW-320 if I want the most affordable PBS-safe camera.. I don't think there's much else in that price range.

January 5th, 2011, 11:00 AM	#21
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	I guess the 1/3" could be foolproof focus wise for the PAs and researchers who can be the person doing the shooting.

January 5th, 2011, 03:21 PM	#23
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	It doesn't surprise me.

January 5th, 2011, 03:28 PM	#24
Philip Fass Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Charlotte, VT Posts: 397	Gary, sorry I'm not savvy enough to understand your comment about secretaries and media students. Could you explain?

January 5th, 2011, 03:36 PM	#25
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Rather than hiring a camera person they use researchers, secretaries and media students (I assume on work experience) to shoot material on some television programmes.

January 6th, 2011, 11:39 AM	#28
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	The main question might be is she replacing a trained video journalist in the production of the regional news or is she involved on a project as part of her training time at the company? By a project I would mean a one or two news items that may or may not be transmitted as part of the student getting experience in the work environment. If they are replacing someone's job, it's an opportunity for no one, because there is no prospect for future employment. Trainees should always be supernumerary to the normal staffing levels. I'm saying this having allowed trainees (having been trainee on a couple of feature films) to work the grade on well funded shorts - part of the funding brief being training.