Total cost of upgrading to HVX

Barry Green · July 16th, 2005, 02:21 AM

Avid offers a fully-functional end-to-end solution for both DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO-HD today. If you're using Avid on the PC, it works right now.

Other PC solutions for DVCPRO-HD include Canopus and Pinnacle.

Simon Wyndham · July 16th, 2005, 09:56 AM

Yes, Avid and Pinnacle offers a solution, which why I pointed out that if you have a PC you could be in for an expensive time. If you currently edit on Vegas, an Avid system, especially one with P2 compatibility isn't exactly going to be cheap.

David Mintzer · July 16th, 2005, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

Well, if you want to do the same things you used to do, your additional budget would be: $0.

I mean, that presumes you're planning on shooting standard-def DV, just like you used to, and you would be using the HVX instead because of its additional capabilities (such as native 16:9 mode, longer zoom range, better focus & zoom, better lens feedback, etc). It is essentially a 16:9 DVX with a miniDV tape drive, so it could serve as a direct replacement for the DVX.

If you want to take advantage of its high-def capabilities, well, that may require a little bit of additional gear. Presumably you'd want a high-def monitor, and presumably one that supports 1080 resolution. You can get that with the Dell 2405FPW for around $900.

You'll need an editing station that supports DVCPRO-HD. Right now if you're using FCP-HD or Avid Express HD, that means no additional cost because you've already got it. If you're not using one of those, you may need to upgrade. It is expected that Sony Vegas and Adobe Premiere Pro should add support, but they may not, so that's something to watch for. Canopus and Pinnacle also support DVCPRO-HD, although I don't know exactly which products or what upgrades would be necessary.

As far as editing computers, if you're using a reasonably current system, you won't have to upgrade. You may want to upgrade to the latest-and-greatest, but you should be able to get adequate performance on current computers. DVCPRO-HD is a lot easier to handle (computation-wise) than HDV is, as HDV requires decompressing groups of frames whereas DVCPRO-HD is frame-discrete. You may want to get some more hard disk storage though, as DVCPRO-HD does take up 4x as much hard-disk space as DV does.

No extra expense for a deck, because P2 cards and hard disks are directly readable by computers today. You may want a $30 PCMCIA reader device for your desktop computer, but that beats shelling out $4,000 for an HDV deck. And you won't necessarily need that either, because you can plug the camera in via firewire and read the contents of the P2 cards straight from it. Whereas that workflow was shied away from with tape-based cameras (i.e., you didn't want to put additional wear and tear on your $4,000 camera by using it as a capture deck), with the HVX/P2 situation that's a non-issue because there is *no* wear and tear when copying files off the P2 cards, whether through the camera or through a PCMCIA slot on the computer.

So that leaves recording medium. To record HD on the HVX you'll either need P2 cards or a DVCPRO-HD-capable FireStore (or comparable product) or a direct firewire connection to a laptop or desktop. If you're using a studio setup where you can direct-connect, then there's no additional cost -- you can stream high-def straight to the computer and capture it there to hard disk. If you want to use P2 cards, best to get the bundle and get two 8gb cards with the camera ($9995 MSRP for the camera and two cards, we will have to wait to see what the actual "street price" is; might be $8500 or less). If you want to use the FireStore, well, we have to wait to see what they produce before we know what that solution will cost.

If you decide to go with P2, the P2 cards can be dumped directly to USB2 external hard disks connected to the camera. Considering that there's probably 4-5 months before the camera comes out, and considering how hard drive prices keep plummeting, it's reasonable to assume that an external 300gb USB2 hard disk will cost under $150 by then. That would give you five hours of storage at about $30/hr. That's cheaper than DVCPRO-HD tape stock -- about half the price of tape, actually. And drive prices will continue to drop.

Why would Sony support Panasonic's DVCPRO-HD? Sony doesn't sell enough units, and wouldn't sell that many more units if they offered support for the format in Vegas.

Barry Green · July 16th, 2005, 08:07 PM

Trust me, we've been asking them to support it!

I sure hope they do.

Kevin Dooley · July 16th, 2005, 08:25 PM

The way I look at it, it wouldn't make sense for Vegas not to support DVCPRO. I mean, they want their NLE to compete with the big boys... and the big boys are supporting DVCPRO...

It's not really a matter of Panasonic's cams vs. Sony cams when it comes to the editing programs... They're gonna try to get your business where they can, and if they missed you on the camera, they certainly want to pick you up on the NLE... besides, it's a completely different part of the company (legally it's probably an actual different company).

Anyway, I can't see how Sony Vegas could afford not to support MXF and DVCPRO, especially if this camera is as wildly popular as people think it will be...

Thomas Smet · July 16th, 2005, 10:30 PM

Actually The mid range products from Pinnacle do not support P2 or DVCpro 50 or HD yet.

I use Liquid Edition Pro and only with a $1000 add-on does it support DVCpro 50. There is currently no DVCpro HD support and who knows if there will be. Now maybe on a chrome or blue system there is but now you are talking well above $20,000 for an edit system. Even the Canopus system charges you an extra $1000 on top of the high cost of their HD system just for the P2 support and DVCpro HD.

Apple and AVID are currently the only companies that offer P2 and DVCpro HD support standard in their packages.

Now depending what AVID decides to do with Pinnacle this may change but it could be a few years from now when it does.

Richard Alvarez · July 17th, 2005, 03:55 AM

I expect Sony's Xpri system to support HD before Vegas does. That's the system that 'competes with the big boys'.

Simon Wyndham · July 17th, 2005, 04:38 AM

You mean DVCproHD? Vegas aready supports high def resolutions and formats, and has done since version 4.

The big two problems here are DVCpro50 and DVCproHD which is a simple thing to sort out as it is just a point of adding the codecs. The second, and most majort problem is making all NLE systems support the MXF format. At the present time it is only the higher end editors that support this both for XDCAM and P2 mainly because at the moment the only people using these systems are broadcasters.

Vegas was demonstrated at NAB taking MXF files straight from XDCAM onto the Vegas 6 timeline. So it shouldn't be too long, I hope, before both MXF wrappers are supported.

Chris Hurd · July 17th, 2005, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Anyway, I can't see how Sony Vegas could afford not to support MXF and DVCPRO,

Actually Sony has supported MXF ever since the beginning (maybe even before Panasonic)... Sony's XDCAM format already uses the MXF file structure. That's one thing P2 and XDCAM have in common.

See http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Pr...404/04-0419aE/

Simon Wyndham · July 17th, 2005, 07:06 AM

Unfortunately as yet Vegas does not accept MXF files. The version of Vegas 6 they showed at NAB was for demonstration purposes only. I've got my fingers crossed I won't have to wait too long though.

July 16th, 2005, 09:56 AM	#47
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Yes, Avid and Pinnacle offers a solution, which why I pointed out that if you have a PC you could be in for an expensive time. If you currently edit on Vegas, an Avid system, especially one with P2 compatibility isn't exactly going to be cheap. Last edited by Simon Wyndham; July 18th, 2005 at 06:05 AM. Reason: Because the original post sounded narky.

July 16th, 2005, 08:25 PM	#50
Kevin Dooley Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 414	The way I look at it, it wouldn't make sense for Vegas not to support DVCPRO. I mean, they want their NLE to compete with the big boys... and the big boys are supporting DVCPRO... It's not really a matter of Panasonic's cams vs. Sony cams when it comes to the editing programs... They're gonna try to get your business where they can, and if they missed you on the camera, they certainly want to pick you up on the NLE... besides, it's a completely different part of the company (legally it's probably an actual different company). Anyway, I can't see how Sony Vegas could afford not to support MXF and DVCPRO, especially if this camera is as wildly popular as people think it will be... __________________ Kevin Dooley Media Director, Pantego Bible Church

July 16th, 2005, 02:21 AM	#46
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Avid offers a fully-functional end-to-end solution for both DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO-HD today. If you're using Avid on the PC, it works right now. Other PC solutions for DVCPRO-HD include Canopus and Pinnacle.

July 16th, 2005, 08:07 PM	#49
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Trust me, we've been asking them to support it! I sure hope they do.

July 16th, 2005, 10:30 PM	#51
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Actually The mid range products from Pinnacle do not support P2 or DVCpro 50 or HD yet. I use Liquid Edition Pro and only with a $1000 add-on does it support DVCpro 50. There is currently no DVCpro HD support and who knows if there will be. Now maybe on a chrome or blue system there is but now you are talking well above $20,000 for an edit system. Even the Canopus system charges you an extra $1000 on top of the high cost of their HD system just for the P2 support and DVCpro HD. Apple and AVID are currently the only companies that offer P2 and DVCpro HD support standard in their packages. Now depending what AVID decides to do with Pinnacle this may change but it could be a few years from now when it does.

July 17th, 2005, 03:55 AM	#52
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	I expect Sony's Xpri system to support HD before Vegas does. That's the system that 'competes with the big boys'.

July 17th, 2005, 04:38 AM	#53
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	You mean DVCproHD? Vegas aready supports high def resolutions and formats, and has done since version 4. The big two problems here are DVCpro50 and DVCproHD which is a simple thing to sort out as it is just a point of adding the codecs. The second, and most majort problem is making all NLE systems support the MXF format. At the present time it is only the higher end editors that support this both for XDCAM and P2 mainly because at the moment the only people using these systems are broadcasters. Vegas was demonstrated at NAB taking MXF files straight from XDCAM onto the Vegas 6 timeline. So it shouldn't be too long, I hope, before both MXF wrappers are supported.

July 17th, 2005, 07:06 AM	#55
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Unfortunately as yet Vegas does not accept MXF files. The version of Vegas 6 they showed at NAB was for demonstration purposes only. I've got my fingers crossed I won't have to wait too long though.