Total cost of upgrading to HVX

Radek Svoboda · July 12th, 2005, 05:45 PM

OK, fine, if are just amateur and time is no money, you can get away with anything. How about you're pro and you do some shooting for television, they require 1080i or 720p60, you don't want record to laptop or whatever. The data rate is 100 Mbps. You need shoot for 3 hours. You don't have time to download cards, backup hard drive. That's not how pros shoot. Need cards for about 10,000 USD. If you to shoot for 8 hours, you need about 27,000 USD worth in cards.

Filter size is 82 mm, I believe. You will need at least W/A lens adapter, some filters. So 1,000 USD is no unreasonable.

Excellent wireless microphone, at least 450 USD. Excellent shotgun, at least 550 USD. Add 1,000 USD.

Offbrand Steadycam, good tripod, HMI lights. You adding another 10-20,000 USD.

Things get expensive, if time is money and you're pro.

If you shoot school project, it's different story.

Radek

Dominic Jones · July 12th, 2005, 05:50 PM

Ash makes a fair point (although it's not as if tapes don't fail!) - a hard backup copy is probably going to be an essential of the system at some point, if only for archival of footage.

That, realistically, means a DVCPro-HD (or at least some kind of HD) deck.
Ouch!

However, it's a risk/reward analysis, and I think most will take it...

Dominic Jones · July 12th, 2005, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radek Svoboda

OK, fine, if are just amateur and time is no money, you can get away with anything. How about you're pro and you do some shooting for television, they require 1080i or 720p60, you don't want record to laptop or whatever. The data rate is 100 Mbps. You need shoot for 3 hours. You don't have time to download cards, backup hard drive. That's not how pros shoot. Need cards for about 10,000 USD. If you to shoot for 8 hours, you need about 27,000 USD worth in cards.

Filter size is 82 mm, I believe. You will need at least W/A lens adapter, some filters. So 1,000 USD is no unreasonable.

Excellent wireless microphone, at least 450 USD. Excellent shotgun, at least 550 USD. Add 1,000 USD.

Offbrand Steadycam, good tripod, HMI lights. You adding another 10-20,000 USD.

Things get expensive, if time is money and you're pro.

If you shoot school project, it's different story.

Radek

Hmm.. You're a pro and you don't have a microphone already??! Or a tripod?

82mm will still comfortably accept a 4x4" matte box, which if you're such a high end pro you'll already use.

HMI lights, Steadicam - that's what hire shops are for mate. :)
And as has been mentioned, P2 media should be readily available from same if you desperately need high volume for a gig...

Also, none of the above is in anyway specific to HD or the HVX - it's a standard in quality video (or film, for that matter) production. It's unreasonable to bundle that with the cost of the camera, imho.

BTW, plenty of very high end pros swap short run media regularly when shooting - eveyone who uses 35mm (or any kind of film), for instance. All you need is a laptop and a Lacie drive to pull the data off - no connection to camera required (or even any real closeness to the camera dept) at all. I agree it's a bit of a hassle, but not one worth spending $27k on!!

Bogdan Apetri · July 12th, 2005, 05:59 PM

Radek,

You forgot to add the truck generator. I wouldn't upgrade to the HVX without that!

:-)

Radek Svoboda · July 12th, 2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogdan Apetri

Radek, You forgot to add the truck generator. I wouldn't upgrade to the HVX without that!:-)

I'm totally sorry. Add 75,000 USD, or can rent it.

I would recommend though Sony 1080p digital cinema monitor, some 30,000 USD.

Don't forget programmable crane. They make them here in Pilsen, town where they make 2nd best Czech beer, Pilsner. The best is Budweiser, from town Budweis, not same as US Budweiser. The crane is about 1/2 million USD. Think Panavision rent it in US. Stack on good Czech beer for crew, 1,000 USD.

Radek

Bogdan Apetri · July 12th, 2005, 06:21 PM

Radek,

With those prices over there in the Czech Republic, it's no wonder that the Americans moved their business from the Barandov Studios to Bucharest, Romania.

Radek Svoboda · July 12th, 2005, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogdan Apetri

Radek,

With those prices over there in the Czech Republic, it's no wonder than the Americans moved their business from the Barandov Studios to Bucharest, Romania.

The largest stages are not in Barandov, only highest prices. Plenty of US productions here still. A town built in secession (art nuovo) style, Karlsbad, is now getting popular for US productions.

Radek

Charles Papert · July 12th, 2005, 07:45 PM

Wow, didn't realize that Technocrane was headquartered in Pilsen--that makes two of my all time favorite products coming from the same city! One of these days I'll have to come for a visit and sample the Pilsner Urquell right at the source...mmm...incidentally, that original Budweiser that Radek mentioned is now being sold in the US under the name Czechvar (quite reasonable at Trader Joe's). Great stuff.

Back to the boring stuff--!--I'm quite sure that regular dumping footage to the storage drives is going to be de rigeur for most types of shooting, even high end. I can't see needing more than 4 8gb cards for "film style" shooting, and that's assuming at least one is just a backup in case of failure--I'd easily see going with just 3 cards (and in the "let's risk it to save money" indie mode, 2).

Kevin Wild · July 12th, 2005, 08:29 PM

So much discussion on how we're going to shoot HD, but there is a while to go before we can actually give clients an HD product. Unless you're shooting for a broadcast program, it's probably SD.

HD DVD/Blue Ray: let's hope they come together on a format soon and get it out in the next year.

KW

Dominic Jones · July 13th, 2005, 06:02 AM

Well, there's a lot of discussion about being able to give clients HD delivery, too - I'm not interested in that, more so (and I know others are too) in potential decent quality film prints for shorts and features to allow theatrical distribution from indie production budgets.

That's the big sell for many, I feel...

Craig Schober · July 13th, 2005, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

Recording JUST to HD is playing with fire. HDs fail and die all the time. Solid state memory is much more, err.. solid. It is going to be a few years before there is a solid, professional workflow that includes back-up to solid-state media (new DLT format or Blueray, etc.)

ash =o)

everyone loves to warn about hd failure but that's like saying "everytime you boot your computer, you're playing with fire." how many of us are really shooting a one time fantastic stunt/exposion take that can't just be reproduced in another take. p2 cards will force indie directors to move on and only grab one extra take (which might be a good thing) but wouldn't it be nice if the director has the choice. with a terabyte of hd, they do. and if a hard drive fails, who cares? bring a few extra drives as backups. you're still spending a lot less than you would on p2 which by the way are not immune to failure. personally i've had more sd/cf/pcmcia cards die on me than hard drives.

Chris Hurd · July 13th, 2005, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Schober

p2 which by the way are not immune to failure. personally i've had more sd/cf/pcmcia cards die on me than hard drives.

I've had cheap flash cards die on me too, and I've seen or heard of a higher incidence of cheap flash card failure over hard drive failure. The difference with P2 though (as well as part of the relatively high cost) is that the particular SD cards that go into a P2 array are "zero-fault" and only the best of the best. Remember P2 is not new for Panasonic... it's been in use for a little while in the professional news-gathering environment with cameras much more expensive than the HVX. This isn't exactly uncharted territory.

Dominic Jones · July 13th, 2005, 09:03 AM

Whilst we're on the subject of HDD failure, it's worth mentioning that a RAID 3 or 5 array (which is relatively inexpensive these days) will guard against anything but two *simultaneous* HDD crashes - and (knock on wood) in my, what, nearly 20 years of using computers (including a degree in software engineering at UCL, for my sins!) I've NEVER known that to happen. It is probably the single safest way to store data available at the present point in time.

The downside is that unless you're happy to either archive footage in permanent external RAID arrays (which will be expensive) or simply delete all of your source footage after finalising a project (which is madness, imho) you will need to back up your footage onto some kind of format - tape is still the only viable option for that at the present point in time, so as I said earlier, I think we still need to look at tape backup for archival purposes...

Unless anyone has any other clever ideas? And don't suggest burning hundreds of DVD's, thank you very much!!! I suppose HD-DVD in data mode might be a potentially viable solution, but even then they're pretty small for raw footage.

Peter Ferling · July 13th, 2005, 10:03 AM

I capture to both tape and HDD. The whole direct to disk idea was to meant improve workflow by not having to digitize prior to edit. Goody. But archival of raw material onto tape is a must, as HDDs do fail. Even so, a hiccup in the system during capture can cause lockups and missed media that will have to be recovered from the tape.

I agree that tapes and decks are still a requirement for professional work. I also backup support files and edit files (non-video files) to DVD. Should I have to reopen or repurpose an old project (and I get a few), it's easy to rebuild to the array by copy and capture.

Bottom line, I'm not sold on the HVX, it's just not proper for long form work. Unless the original poster is shooting indie style, then 8mins of stuff is sufficient for takes. Still, you have to bother with swapping out cards and copying the media to a HDD. Nuts. Just record to a 120min tape and HDD simulatenously then.

Dominic Jones · July 13th, 2005, 10:29 AM

I agree entirely Peter, but that's the problem with the HVX - unless you're shooting DVCPro (i.e. DV) you can't capture simultaneously to tape and so it becomes something that needs to be done after the fact...

July 12th, 2005, 06:21 PM	#21
Bogdan Apetri Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: New York, USA Posts: 117	Radek, With those prices over there in the Czech Republic, it's no wonder that the Americans moved their business from the Barandov Studios to Bucharest, Romania. Last edited by Bogdan Apetri; July 12th, 2005 at 06:49 PM.

July 12th, 2005, 07:45 PM	#23
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Wow, didn't realize that Technocrane was headquartered in Pilsen--that makes two of my all time favorite products coming from the same city! One of these days I'll have to come for a visit and sample the Pilsner Urquell right at the source...mmm...incidentally, that original Budweiser that Radek mentioned is now being sold in the US under the name Czechvar (quite reasonable at Trader Joe's). Great stuff. Back to the boring stuff--!--I'm quite sure that regular dumping footage to the storage drives is going to be de rigeur for most types of shooting, even high end. I can't see needing more than 4 8gb cards for "film style" shooting, and that's assuming at least one is just a backup in case of failure--I'd easily see going with just 3 cards (and in the "let's risk it to save money" indie mode, 2). __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

July 12th, 2005, 05:45 PM	#16
Radek Svoboda Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Prague, Czech Republic Posts: 500	OK, fine, if are just amateur and time is no money, you can get away with anything. How about you're pro and you do some shooting for television, they require 1080i or 720p60, you don't want record to laptop or whatever. The data rate is 100 Mbps. You need shoot for 3 hours. You don't have time to download cards, backup hard drive. That's not how pros shoot. Need cards for about 10,000 USD. If you to shoot for 8 hours, you need about 27,000 USD worth in cards. Filter size is 82 mm, I believe. You will need at least W/A lens adapter, some filters. So 1,000 USD is no unreasonable. Excellent wireless microphone, at least 450 USD. Excellent shotgun, at least 550 USD. Add 1,000 USD. Offbrand Steadycam, good tripod, HMI lights. You adding another 10-20,000 USD. Things get expensive, if time is money and you're pro. If you shoot school project, it's different story. Radek

July 12th, 2005, 05:50 PM	#17
Dominic Jones Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 225	Ash makes a fair point (although it's not as if tapes don't fail!) - a hard backup copy is probably going to be an essential of the system at some point, if only for archival of footage. That, realistically, means a DVCPro-HD (or at least some kind of HD) deck. Ouch! However, it's a risk/reward analysis, and I think most will take it...

July 12th, 2005, 05:59 PM	#19
Bogdan Apetri Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: New York, USA Posts: 117	Radek, You forgot to add the truck generator. I wouldn't upgrade to the HVX without that! :-)

July 12th, 2005, 08:29 PM	#24
Kevin Wild Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 540	So much discussion on how we're going to shoot HD, but there is a while to go before we can actually give clients an HD product. Unless you're shooting for a broadcast program, it's probably SD. HD DVD/Blue Ray: let's hope they come together on a format soon and get it out in the next year. KW

July 13th, 2005, 06:02 AM	#25
Dominic Jones Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 225	Well, there's a lot of discussion about being able to give clients HD delivery, too - I'm not interested in that, more so (and I know others are too) in potential decent quality film prints for shorts and features to allow theatrical distribution from indie production budgets. That's the big sell for many, I feel...

July 13th, 2005, 09:03 AM	#28
Dominic Jones Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 225	Whilst we're on the subject of HDD failure, it's worth mentioning that a RAID 3 or 5 array (which is relatively inexpensive these days) will guard against anything but two simultaneous HDD crashes - and (knock on wood) in my, what, nearly 20 years of using computers (including a degree in software engineering at UCL, for my sins!) I've NEVER known that to happen. It is probably the single safest way to store data available at the present point in time. The downside is that unless you're happy to either archive footage in permanent external RAID arrays (which will be expensive) or simply delete all of your source footage after finalising a project (which is madness, imho) you will need to back up your footage onto some kind of format - tape is still the only viable option for that at the present point in time, so as I said earlier, I think we still need to look at tape backup for archival purposes... Unless anyone has any other clever ideas? And don't suggest burning hundreds of DVD's, thank you very much!!! I suppose HD-DVD in data mode might be a potentially viable solution, but even then they're pretty small for raw footage.

July 13th, 2005, 10:03 AM	#29
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	I capture to both tape and HDD. The whole direct to disk idea was to meant improve workflow by not having to digitize prior to edit. Goody. But archival of raw material onto tape is a must, as HDDs do fail. Even so, a hiccup in the system during capture can cause lockups and missed media that will have to be recovered from the tape. I agree that tapes and decks are still a requirement for professional work. I also backup support files and edit files (non-video files) to DVD. Should I have to reopen or repurpose an old project (and I get a few), it's easy to rebuild to the array by copy and capture. Bottom line, I'm not sold on the HVX, it's just not proper for long form work. Unless the original poster is shooting indie style, then 8mins of stuff is sufficient for takes. Still, you have to bother with swapping out cards and copying the media to a HDD. Nuts. Just record to a 120min tape and HDD simulatenously then.

July 13th, 2005, 10:29 AM	#30
Dominic Jones Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 225	I agree entirely Peter, but that's the problem with the HVX - unless you're shooting DVCPro (i.e. DV) you can't capture simultaneously to tape and so it becomes something that needs to be done after the fact...