HVX on BH Photo

Chris Hurd · May 4th, 2005, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurth Bousman

Chris - I'd think it would be better to have three cards, since the camera has two slots - you could juggle the third , always keeping the longest capacity available in the camera - except , of course , for the changeover.

I agree, Kurth -- I guess my point is that two P2 cards are all you need as a bare minimum. Three would be even better! But it's only a question of cycling cards. There is no "limit" on recording time at all. You could shoot all day long using only two cards if you had to.

Charles Papert · May 4th, 2005, 06:56 PM

I'm not the first to point out that the paradigm of working with these cards will be in some ways similar to a film setup, wherein the loader takes the exposed mag, downloads it, reloads it, and delivers it back to the set. What may be worth pointing out is how many mags are in a standard order; for a given shooting mode (i.e. 400ft handheld or Steadicam, 1000 ft conventional) 3 mags is considered absolute minimum, in case there is a jam or malfunction in one. Two mags will guarantee down time on set while waiting for the other one to be returned.

I would personally only feel comfortable with 3 P2 cards, and would only consider going on a distant location with 4.

Andreas Fernbrant · May 5th, 2005, 05:52 AM

They just changed the delivery date on B&H to December.
*DOH*

Ian Poirier · May 5th, 2005, 06:51 AM

I think I'd feel pretty comfortable with two cards. Solid state, no moving parts, it'd be pretty tough for something to go wrong with them. I mean, of course, would I rather have 3 or 4? No doubt. The best of all worlds would be that by the time it comes out there's a firestore type device ready to go that's fully compatible. 60gigs that you could strap on your belt. That would be ideal, at least for my shooting situations. With any recording medium you're taking a risk, right? Drop-outs can blow a good take on tape (rare albeit), film can screwed up through bad handling. Of course maybe by the 4Q competitors will have P2 cards for much cheaper and I'll grab 4 without a doubt. As is, for me I think I'm going to buy the camera without the cards unless something big happens with P2 pricing by then. Switching over to being able to edit HD is gonna take some time for me (money wise I mean). That's why I think Panna leaving the DV capability in the cam was a great idea for those of us struggling to make small films and still adapt to the newest technology (while still working a day job).

Mike Tiffee · May 5th, 2005, 08:19 AM

I've heard talk about bypassing the P2 cards and recording directly to HDD, or strapping a HDD to your belt as Ian just stated but my concern has nothing to do with data rates, storage capacity, image quality, etc. My concern is with the firewire cables themselves.. they sure seem to pull out easily, they're not locking like a BNC cable or triax cable. Does anyone have a clever way to ensure that the cable stays put in the camera?

Ian Poirier · May 5th, 2005, 08:22 AM

That's a valid concern. I haven't thought about that.

Chris Hurd · May 5th, 2005, 08:32 AM

Knot the FW cable around the handgrip (snugly, but don't bind it), so that any hard tug merely pulls on the handgrip... then gaff-tape the connection on the cam. Not elegant, not pretty, but it's a fairly industrial solution.

Same thing at the other end -- find something near the HDD, like a strap on its case or something, put a few loops of FW cable through there first and then tape down that connection.

I'm no fan of gummy tape residue, but in the absence of locking FW connectors (which is a huge advantage of SDI, by the way), it's one viable approach. What would really help are FW cables with ninety-degree connectors.

Kurth Bousman · May 5th, 2005, 11:48 AM

<<<I'm no fan of gummy tape residue>>>
Chris - Shrink tubing - the cable could easily absorb the short heating cycle , and then rig up some kind of safety hook or eye beneath that could be easily disconnected using industrial hardware even tie straps- I hate tape for long term solutions- no pun intended !
<<<I'm not the first to point out that the paradigm of working with these cards will be in some ways similar to a film setup, wherein the loader takes the exposed mag, downloads it, reloads it, and delivers it back to the set.>>>
Charles -I said that in a previous place and then furthered the metaphor by comparing size reductions between 400' mags and p2 cards vs. their respective recording capacities , and then to think p2 is reusable - almost defies the laws of physics. The p2 card solution is perfect , it just needs to be cheaper. HD's fail .
My only problem is how to find the 100 bills necessary for it's delivery, but I think it will be worth every penny at b&h or wherever- Kurth

Jim Giberti · May 5th, 2005, 01:19 PM

As far as the cost of P2 cards being insane or prohibitive, it was just a while ago in relative terms that we put together our first non-linear room in our creative shop.

So many producers and shooters said that independent computer based studios weren't yet practical. We heard the same thing as we migrated to desk top design and digital audio production.

My point is that our first sytstem, a 33 mhz Mac Quadra 840 AV cost about $5k, you couldn't put 2 gigs of ram in it, but if you could it would have cost as much.

Our first striped raid array...4 gigs cost $4500.

It's simply the innate cost of moving forward into the new world of increased creative possibility.

Of course we'll all be saying in a couple of years. "can you believe we spent $1600 on a P2 card with the original HVX!?"

We just moved into out new studios and we're still cleaning out rooms full of equipment from our old building that don't fit into the new digs.

I just gave away a huge analog mixing console, prisitine 2 track recorders, racks of gear...an entire media 100 SCSI system is literally being used to hold a door open for movers <g>.

Just that gear together was worth $60-75k. I'm literally paying to throw away a dozen CRT monitors.

I don't begrudge any of it...it's literally the price of progress. We live in the most creatively evolutionary time in human history. Don't complain about it...embrace it.

Chris Hurd · May 5th, 2005, 01:33 PM

Well put, Jim... besides... this stuff pays for itself anyway. Many times over!

Jim Giberti · May 5th, 2005, 01:48 PM

<<Well put, Jim... besides... this stuff pays for itself anyway. Many times over!>>>

Thanks Chris, I just did a little interview this week with Markee Mag about our new facilities and the trends in film/video production. It still surprises me that people are so interested in "smaller shops" doing "big" work. I mean, I really thought that hurdle was cleared a decade or more ago.

Anyway, there was a genuine satisfaction over a statement like "more and more clients are hip to the idea of using a small shop that can write and shoot and produce with ther own audio and video post rooms" My guess is that's exactly what most of our many friends here are doing or building to do. It isn't the future, it's the now.

And if I actually get them a couple of shots emailed by tommorrow's deadline there will be a pic of the new mountain top studios in the June edition.

Viva the revolution!

May 4th, 2005, 06:56 PM	#62
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	I'm not the first to point out that the paradigm of working with these cards will be in some ways similar to a film setup, wherein the loader takes the exposed mag, downloads it, reloads it, and delivers it back to the set. What may be worth pointing out is how many mags are in a standard order; for a given shooting mode (i.e. 400ft handheld or Steadicam, 1000 ft conventional) 3 mags is considered absolute minimum, in case there is a jam or malfunction in one. Two mags will guarantee down time on set while waiting for the other one to be returned. I would personally only feel comfortable with 3 P2 cards, and would only consider going on a distant location with 4. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

May 5th, 2005, 08:32 AM	#67
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Knot the FW cable around the handgrip (snugly, but don't bind it), so that any hard tug merely pulls on the handgrip... then gaff-tape the connection on the cam. Not elegant, not pretty, but it's a fairly industrial solution. Same thing at the other end -- find something near the HDD, like a strap on its case or something, put a few loops of FW cable through there first and then tape down that connection. I'm no fan of gummy tape residue, but in the absence of locking FW connectors (which is a huge advantage of SDI, by the way), it's one viable approach. What would really help are FW cables with ninety-degree connectors. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 5th, 2005, 01:33 PM	#70
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Well put, Jim... besides... this stuff pays for itself anyway. Many times over! __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 5th, 2005, 05:52 AM	#63
Andreas Fernbrant Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sweden - Helsingborg Posts: 283	They just changed the delivery date on B&H to December. DOH

May 5th, 2005, 06:51 AM	#64
Ian Poirier Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 82	I think I'd feel pretty comfortable with two cards. Solid state, no moving parts, it'd be pretty tough for something to go wrong with them. I mean, of course, would I rather have 3 or 4? No doubt. The best of all worlds would be that by the time it comes out there's a firestore type device ready to go that's fully compatible. 60gigs that you could strap on your belt. That would be ideal, at least for my shooting situations. With any recording medium you're taking a risk, right? Drop-outs can blow a good take on tape (rare albeit), film can screwed up through bad handling. Of course maybe by the 4Q competitors will have P2 cards for much cheaper and I'll grab 4 without a doubt. As is, for me I think I'm going to buy the camera without the cards unless something big happens with P2 pricing by then. Switching over to being able to edit HD is gonna take some time for me (money wise I mean). That's why I think Panna leaving the DV capability in the cam was a great idea for those of us struggling to make small films and still adapt to the newest technology (while still working a day job).

May 5th, 2005, 08:19 AM	#65
Mike Tiffee Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 150	I've heard talk about bypassing the P2 cards and recording directly to HDD, or strapping a HDD to your belt as Ian just stated but my concern has nothing to do with data rates, storage capacity, image quality, etc. My concern is with the firewire cables themselves.. they sure seem to pull out easily, they're not locking like a BNC cable or triax cable. Does anyone have a clever way to ensure that the cable stays put in the camera?

May 5th, 2005, 08:22 AM	#66
Ian Poirier Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 82	That's a valid concern. I haven't thought about that.

May 5th, 2005, 11:48 AM	#68
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	<<<I'm no fan of gummy tape residue>>> Chris - Shrink tubing - the cable could easily absorb the short heating cycle , and then rig up some kind of safety hook or eye beneath that could be easily disconnected using industrial hardware even tie straps- I hate tape for long term solutions- no pun intended ! <<<I'm not the first to point out that the paradigm of working with these cards will be in some ways similar to a film setup, wherein the loader takes the exposed mag, downloads it, reloads it, and delivers it back to the set.>>> Charles -I said that in a previous place and then furthered the metaphor by comparing size reductions between 400' mags and p2 cards vs. their respective recording capacities , and then to think p2 is reusable - almost defies the laws of physics. The p2 card solution is perfect , it just needs to be cheaper. HD's fail . My only problem is how to find the 100 bills necessary for it's delivery, but I think it will be worth every penny at b&h or wherever- Kurth

May 5th, 2005, 01:19 PM	#69
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	As far as the cost of P2 cards being insane or prohibitive, it was just a while ago in relative terms that we put together our first non-linear room in our creative shop. So many producers and shooters said that independent computer based studios weren't yet practical. We heard the same thing as we migrated to desk top design and digital audio production. My point is that our first sytstem, a 33 mhz Mac Quadra 840 AV cost about $5k, you couldn't put 2 gigs of ram in it, but if you could it would have cost as much. Our first striped raid array...4 gigs cost $4500. It's simply the innate cost of moving forward into the new world of increased creative possibility. Of course we'll all be saying in a couple of years. "can you believe we spent $1600 on a P2 card with the original HVX!?" We just moved into out new studios and we're still cleaning out rooms full of equipment from our old building that don't fit into the new digs. I just gave away a huge analog mixing console, prisitine 2 track recorders, racks of gear...an entire media 100 SCSI system is literally being used to hold a door open for movers <g>. Just that gear together was worth $60-75k. I'm literally paying to throw away a dozen CRT monitors. I don't begrudge any of it...it's literally the price of progress. We live in the most creatively evolutionary time in human history. Don't complain about it...embrace it.

May 5th, 2005, 01:48 PM	#71
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	<<Well put, Jim... besides... this stuff pays for itself anyway. Many times over!>>> Thanks Chris, I just did a little interview this week with Markee Mag about our new facilities and the trends in film/video production. It still surprises me that people are so interested in "smaller shops" doing "big" work. I mean, I really thought that hurdle was cleared a decade or more ago. Anyway, there was a genuine satisfaction over a statement like "more and more clients are hip to the idea of using a small shop that can write and shoot and produce with ther own audio and video post rooms" My guess is that's exactly what most of our many friends here are doing or building to do. It isn't the future, it's the now. And if I actually get them a couple of shots emailed by tommorrow's deadline there will be a pic of the new mountain top studios in the June edition. Viva the revolution!