HVX on BH Photo

[Greg Harris]

yeah that's insane. Don't they only hold about 10minutes of HD video??? They should have atleast 40gigs

[Chris Hurd]

For Kenn Christenson, yes, they will sell the HVX200 without P2 cards for $5995.

For Geg Harris, it's not insane when you consider that this is DVCPro HD recording for under $10k. It's not insane, it's quite reasonable for the money. As long as you have a way to download cards on location, then there really is no maximum recording limit, only a maximum single shot length. Even the AJ-PCS060 is small enough to be worn on your belt, is battery powered and holds 60gigs. With two cards you have practically limitless recording for hours and hours. Hope this helps,

[Kenn Christenson]

"For Kenn Christenson, yes, they will sell the HVX200 without P2 cards for $5995."

Well, I hope it's not just for little ol' me. :)

I'm sure there are lots of budget minded people out there willing to use the old laptop until the P2 prices drop.

[Greg Harris]

Hey guys off topic, but we were talking about skateboarding and the DVX, here is my newest promo for my video.
thanks
http://homepage.mac.com/jredwards4/iMovieTheater8.html

[Doug Fearman]

Great Job Greg...............
doug

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Greg Harris

yeah that's insane. Don't they only hold about 10minutes of HD video??? They should have atleast 40gigs

Yeah, an 8GB card would give about 10 minutes of DVCProHD-100, the camera holds 2 cards, so you get 20 minutes of record time without swapping cards until higher capacities become available.

I don't know if I would call it insane, but it does pose some serious issues for those recording long format stuff or it just adds one more step into your workflow having to offload cards as you work.

Also keep in mind that 720p - especially the 30 and 24 fps modes allow for more record time as they don't eat up the full 100Mbps data rate and if you shoot SD DVCPro50, figure 20 minutes record time per 8GB card.

solid state recording for video is relatively new, especially in this price range. Eventually, it will provide more space than we ever had with tape, it will just take another couple years to get there. Eventually we'll have 128GB and larger cards... Probably by 2010, 1TB solid state storage devices will be on the horizon or even readily available. I know it's pointless to speculate that far out. Then again, it's somewhat pointless to go nuts over the HVX200 until it's actually here... Or we should at least wait for some sample footage and solid specs for the CCD and other things.

[Lawrence Bochkis]

Jeff,
You're right, it's a new technology. With new technology comes a host of problems and responsibilities, along with new advantages.

We're in one of those shake-up phases right now it seems, where everything is on the cusp of changing shape. Unfortunately, many people are stuck in the middle, and their heads are spinning....I know mine is.

For example, this P2 represents possibly some of the most magnificent possibilities for video; nearly limitless capabilites of frame-rates, resolution, etc. on one source. At the same time, there isn't a rat's chance in a busy vietnamese kitchen that I or most people could possibly afford even one p2 card to go to battle with. I imagine if someone were to be silly enough to shoot an entire film with just P2 cards, it would cost far more than the same footage in the highest quality chrome film.
In time though, prices will go down, and the techology represents a giant leap forward in my opinion. People will work out the kinks, capacities will skyrocket, and back-up options will expand as well.

Imagine how eventually you could have a camera that never drops a single frame or pixel, even if you shoot on a roller coaster, or on a formula 1 racer. You could shoot in freezing temperatures, and in a sand-storm.

It almost seems to me that this kind of an advancement is a kind of analog to modern photographers using leica cameras with no battery consumption...the camera will work and work and work under any condition. Not to mention you can film one minute, and edit the next.


The real question in my mind is what will the other companies do to respond to Panasonic? I'm sure they will not sit idly by while Panasonic rules the world in 10 years. It'd be like insisting on using phonographs when cd's are available.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bochkis

At the same time, there isn't a rat's chance in a busy vietnamese kitchen that I or most people could possibly afford even one p2 card to go to battle with.

I think this will be the largest hurdle for P2 technology at the start. I really want to move my video production into HD as it would be extremely beneficial to me. I can definitely afford the HVX200 and would probably consider a second if I can generate enough revenue with the first (besides I will probably unload my DVX100 if I can buy a second HVX). But the cost of P2 cards has me a little miffed (as I have already ranted about in another thread). I will probably suck it up and find a way to buy 2 8GB cards along with the camera just because it's what I would need to shoot the HD content and I hate owning something that I can't use so no point in buying the HVX if I'm just going to shoot DV25 with it. I'd like to buy a host of other accessories for the camera as well like a nice mattebox and a new tripod maybe a focus ring adapter once it becomes available (assuming the lens on the HVX has the same focus limitations of the DVX100). But a lot of that stuff may have to wait initially so I can swallow the P2 cards. I think a lot of people on these forums are in the same situation. $5K or somewhere in that range is stretching the budget... $10K after throwing in P2 cards is too much. I'm hoping that as we get closer to release some prices will adjust and hopefully there will be other memory card makers jumping onto the P2 bandwagon to help bring the prices down.

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bochkis

I imagine if someone were to be silly enough to shoot an entire film with just P2 cards, it would cost far more than the same footage in the highest quality chrome film.

I don't know... I suppose that would depend on a lot of other factors too. From my point of view, I would think P2 to be cheaper. I have all the hardware here to integrate P2 in my workflow. The only thing I'm lacking is a NLE that supports the DVCPro formats as I use Vegas. I'm going to assume that Vegas will support the DVCPro formats in the near future and in time for the HVX200 release since they would (IMO) be foolish to ignore this camera and they would also be foolish to ignore a format that FCP supports. But worse case scenario is I would switch to Avid Xpress HD or use a 3rd party add-on for Vegas to give me the DVCPro capabilities. With P2 there's no additional processing expense or time for the film stock and I essentially have unlimited shooting capacity as I have tons of drive space here to accommodate this and I have the DLT backup system to archive it as well.

But the cost of shooting a film is also subjective to endless parameters. I can visualize a few scenarios where it would be cheaper to rent a Varicam or even a CineAlta for a 2 to 3 day shoot and acquire all the footage into a usable format for less than it would cost to buy the HVX200 and necessary accessories to accomplish the same thing at a lower level of quality.

I'm planning to buy the HVX200 when it arrives, but I may just borrow or rent one for a few days before actually making the purchase. I still may do better with something like an FX1 or Z1 which will have a lower operating cost for HD and then when I need superior image quality, I will still go rent something else. OTOH, actually owning an HVX200 should give a huge improvement in quality over HDV cameras and if I own it I can put it in an under-water housing or other high risk activities and I don't have the people at the rental place or my insurance agent saying, "you want to do what??!!!"

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bochkis

The real question in my mind is what will the other companies do to respond to Panasonic? I'm sure they will not sit idly by while Panasonic rules the world in 10 years. It'd be like insisting on using phonographs when cd's are available.

Hard to say... I know JVC is going to HDD recording with their new HDV camera. Sony is going to start pushing 4GB and larger capacity memory-sticks and memory stick based camcorders in the consumer market along with units that record to 3" BluRay discs, but they're phasing out tape as well. I think tape is definitely going to die as the dominant media in the next few years as far as buying a new camera is concerned. However, it will probably be a while until one or two new formats really establish themselves in the market and I bet we see a lot new technologies arrive in the market only to fail before it's all over. That's why I'm somewhat surprised that Panasonic is acting so casual about P2 prices. I know they have to uphold their pro market image and approach to these products, but I think they would do better to push P2 more into the mainstream. Just think how cool it would be if P2 were as commonplace as regular SD or CF memory cards and every Panny camcorder from the $400 palmcorder on up to the next generation of the Varicam all ran off of P2 media. But now after typing that I realize it will never happen. They're not going to want to blur the market so much and they will want to keep their pro products solely in the pro market, at least for a while.

[Ian Poirier]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bochkis

Jeff,
I imagine if someone were to be silly enough to shoot an entire film with just P2 cards, it would cost far more than the same footage in the highest quality chrome film.

The P2 cards are a one time reusable storage medium. You don't fill them up and have to buy another. I don't understand that statement at all. This camera, as Jan has stated in other posts, is designed for filmmakers. In fact, in controlled shooting situations 20 minutes of 1080pHD is simply incredible for 10K.

[Chris Hurd]

Good point, Ian. Not only that, but all you'll ever need for limitless recording times are only *two* P2 cards, as long as you have off-camera storage nearby. Shoot one card while downloading the other. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Ian Poirier]

That's what I'm talking about, brother! And native 16:9 to Mini-DV to ease the transition as I convert to an HD workflow from my DVX? Can't ask for more than that.

[Patrick Bower]

http://tinyurl.com/bmjfd

[Thomas Smet]

Would you rather have had Panasonic add a HD tape deck to this thing and charge $25,000.00 for the camera and then have to buy $60.00 - $80.00 tapes?

You do realize that after you shot 100 HD tapes you will have spent $6,000 - $8,000 just on tapes alone? If you want to keep shooting you will have to keep buying tapes. Of course you could reuse tapes again but what kind of a pro really does that.

So now we can have a DVCPRO HD camera for $10,000.00 and 20 minutes or more worth of P2 cards that can be used as much as you want. This is compared to the 25g's plus 8g's if the camera used tapes.

Just think of P2 as buying a box of 50 to 75 tapes to go with your camera. Many of us already are used to buying tapes in bulk. If you do not think you would use that many tapes, I for example used over 200 tapes just last year alone.

[Kurth Bousman]

<<<<Good point, Ian. Not only that, but all you'll ever need for limitless recording times are only *two* P2 cards, as long as you have off-camera storage nearby. Shoot one card while downloading the other. Lather, rinse, repeat.>>>>
Chris - I'd think it would be better to have three cards, since the camera has two slots - you could juggle the third , always keeping the longest capacity available in the camera - except , of course , for the changeover. Hopefully soon ( 2 years ) the camera could be had for 6-7 grand with 3 cards and the reader+HD and cards up to 20 gigs apiece - an exponential increase as happened with firewire drives. In my first G3/fcp , I had 4 state of the art 25 gig drives - wow , did that change fast. The same will happen with p2, if it becomes the standard- the big " if ". Kurth

[Dan Euritt]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bochkis

Imagine how eventually you could have a camera that never drops a single frame or pixel, even if you shoot on a roller coaster, or on a formula 1 racer. You could shoot in freezing temperatures, and in a sand-storm.

it's already here, i shot this footage last year using the 6 mbps mpeg2 sd card recorder function on the panasonic av100, a tapeless consumer camera that has since been discontinued: http://www.oceanstreetvideo.com/import/import.html

that is a 2 mb flash file, it'll take a minute to load up.

look at the way the roll cage is shaking around in the car, the camera never missed a beat... what you can't imagine is how free it feels to not have to hassle with tape! plug the sd card into the laptop, and off you go.

changing subjects; there are picture quality advantages to shooting hd footage, and downconverting it to sd resolution: http://www.tvtechnology.com/hd_notebook/one.php?id=228