HARD DRIVE Support: This is huge

Rob Lohman · April 19th, 2005, 04:56 AM

Aaron: in theory that should be possible with 2.5" harddisks and a custom
"case" to fit them in. I can't imagine that would be too hard to engineer.

Dylan Pank · April 19th, 2005, 07:57 AM

I have to say I'm now extremely sceptical about this now. All this talk of "Panasonic techs streaming to an iPod" seems to have come from an experiment that BlackMagic design did playing BACK from (not recording to) an iPod, nothing to do with Panasonic other than by coincidence they happened to utilise the DVCproHD codec.

I think the answer for those wanting >1 hour runtimes (or even >8 minutes) will be firestore type devices rather than off the shelf HDs. Right now one of those costs what a P2 8GB card. Should they get such a time running with the HVX, I'd rather have one of those bundled with a HVX than 2 P2 cards.

Shealan Forshaw · April 19th, 2005, 08:43 AM

The best workfow would probably to record to a single 8gb P2 card. Then dump the footage down to a drive each time you are happy with the shots, wipe the P2, and fill up again, rinse and repeat.

Imran Zaidi · April 19th, 2005, 09:00 AM

I wonder if, just like with all memory cartridges, it will be long before other companies start offering 'P2 Compatible' cartridges, at half the price.

Barry Schmetter · April 19th, 2005, 12:52 PM

No, that's not what everyone is talking about. Noah Kadner spoke with Panasonic engineers that recorded directly to several HDDs, including an iPod, with a prototype HVX200. However, there are some issues that Panny has to resolve before implementing this feature. There are questions about the diversity of HDDs out there and other technical issues. I think that unless they feel they've got a very solid implementation, they'll leave off this feature. Panny isn't promising anything, but it's not off the table either--so they're working on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan Pank

I have to say I'm now extremely sceptical about this now. All this talk of "Panasonic techs streaming to an iPod" seems to have come from an experiment that BlackMagic design did playing BACK from (not recording to) an iPod, nothing to do with Panasonic other than by coincidence they happened to utilise the DVCproHD codec.

I think the answer for those wanting >1 hour runtimes (or even >8 minutes) will be firestore type devices rather than off the shelf HDs. Right now one of those costs what a P2 8GB card. Should they get such a time running with the HVX, I'd rather have one of those bundled with a HVX than 2 P2 cards.

Barry Schmetter · April 19th, 2005, 12:54 PM

Jan's already stated that Panny will license P2 to other companies--so yes, expect to see non-Panny P2 cards. Hopefully, the licensing fees will be reasonable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imran Zaidi

I wonder if, just like with all memory cartridges, it will be long before other companies start offering 'P2 Compatible' cartridges, at half the price.

Imran Zaidi · April 19th, 2005, 12:57 PM

Ah that's great news. That's a sure-fire way to make sure that P2 sticks around.

Ben Buie · April 19th, 2005, 01:33 PM

Excuse my skepticism, but . . .

Does this direct to GENERIC firewire hard drive recording exist on any camera right now?

The firestore hard drives work because they have software that recognizes the data stream and creates the appropriate files on the hard drive, the camera doesn't have to do anything special.

For a generic firewire hard-drive it would be a bit more complicated; for example, the camera would have to go into different I/O modes based on whether it was connected to a firewire hard drive or to a computer (or TV w/ firewire). It would also have to know about file systems, etc. The firewire port on almost every camera just outputs a raw data stream and depends on software (on the computer or TV) to detect the stream and start capturing/playing.

Not saying it is impossible, but given a) the fact they are already working with Firestore, and b) that they have such a large investment in P2 technology, it seems unlikely that they would support generic firewire hard drives. Hope I'm wrong though.

Ben

P.S. What is the sustained data rate on the inexpensive small firewire hard drives? Is it enough to support DVC PRO HD (100 Mbps, roughly 13 MB/s) without dropped frames?

Kevin Dooley · April 19th, 2005, 01:42 PM

Well, this camera is a slightly different beast than most anything else on the market right now...

It's already encoding the footage into MXF files to place on the P2 cards... so why can't it send that data stream over the firewire or USB port to a harddrive, just like transfering files from harddrive to harddrive, or USB drive to SATA drive or whatever... in fact, when you use the P2 cards in camer and hook the cam up via firewire and/or USB, the computer supposedly will see the camera as a hdd or other storage device...

So I think it's fairly likely that Panasonic CAN make this work... it's just a matter of do they WANT to...

Jeff Kilgroe · April 19th, 2005, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Buie

For a generic firewire hard-drive it would be a bit more complicated; for example, the camera would have to go into different I/O modes based on whether it was connected to a firewire hard drive or to a computer (or TV w/ firewire). It would also have to know about file systems, etc. The firewire port on almost every camera just outputs a raw data stream and depends on software (on the computer or TV) to detect the stream and start capturing/playing.

Actually it wouldn't be difficult at all. Both the Firewire and USB specifications have full support for storage devices, including various standard file system protocols. There are plenty of USB and Firewire devices in this world that talk to off-the-shelf USB/firewire hard drives right out of the box, including network routers, print servers, video conferencing systems, phone/PBX systems, etc..

There are several 2.5" drives on the market that have sufficeint data rates to handle the full 13MB/sec with a little head room. Most of the mainstream 5400 and 7200 rpm drives with 8GB (or larger) buffers these days will do this.

I am skeptical about Panasonic actually supporting this ability though... Supporting direct recording to HDD would really cut into their push for P2 cards and it would also cut third party licensee partners out of the picture (like Firestore).

I think the only reason that Panasonic will go ahead and consider adding this ability is to keep up with the JVC HD100 which will have an internal hard drive option. However, I'm not going to hold my breath on this...

Kevin Dooley · April 19th, 2005, 02:32 PM

Not to nitpick or anything, but the JVC cam will be using a firestore device designed for JVC, just like the 5000 did (I believe it was the 5000, wasn't it?), not an internal harddrive.

Barry Schmetter · April 19th, 2005, 02:56 PM

It's already confirmed that the HVX200 will be able to dump files from the P2 cards directly to off-the-shelf hard drives plugged into the camera. That's confirmed. So the HVX200 already has the ability to act as a HDD controller. As Jeff mentioned, many currently shipping drives will be able to handle the data stream. I think there's some concern on Panasonic's part regarding the variety of devices that might be plugged in and how to support this feature. For instance, an iPod might be able to handle the DVCPRO50 stream and only *some* of the smaller HD streams. So naturally, you'll have users trying to shoot all day in 1080 30P with their first generation iPods and cursing Panasonic's name. Maybe they can include it as an "undocumented feature".

Aaron Koolen · April 19th, 2005, 03:02 PM

Barry, where is this confirmed? Not saying it's not true, but I'd like to hear it from a Panasonic rep myself.

Aaron

Kevin Wild · April 19th, 2005, 03:10 PM

I'm not sure I get it (or maybe it's that others aren't) but why do we need to worry about a HD being fast enough to handle the HD stream. It's data. I don't want to edit from my iPod. I just want a place to put the data (video) so I can free up a P2 card. If it takes a little longer because it's a slower harddrive, fine.

It seems to me unless Panasonic does something to actually disable this function, it should be easy. It's just transferring a file from one harddrive (P2) to another (external harddrive, iPod, whatever).

Am I oversimplifying this?

KW

Barry Green · April 19th, 2005, 03:10 PM

I spent three hours with Jan and Phil Livingston, going through every aspect of the camera that I could, and verifying the workflow in every possible way. They told me that the dub feature allows you to dub the contents of the P2 card over to either tape (which would involve downrezzing to DV) or over to a hard disk, and that's what the SPB2 protocol is for. The camera supports both AVC and SPB2, AVC is the protocol used when a camera and deck are talking to each other, SPB2 is the protocol used for file transfer. When using SPB2, you can transfer files directly off of the P2 card to a USB2 hard disk.

April 19th, 2005, 04:56 AM	#46
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Aaron: in theory that should be possible with 2.5" harddisks and a custom "case" to fit them in. I can't imagine that would be too hard to engineer. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 19th, 2005, 01:33 PM	#53
Ben Buie Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 184	Excuse my skepticism, but . . . Does this direct to GENERIC firewire hard drive recording exist on any camera right now? The firestore hard drives work because they have software that recognizes the data stream and creates the appropriate files on the hard drive, the camera doesn't have to do anything special. For a generic firewire hard-drive it would be a bit more complicated; for example, the camera would have to go into different I/O modes based on whether it was connected to a firewire hard drive or to a computer (or TV w/ firewire). It would also have to know about file systems, etc. The firewire port on almost every camera just outputs a raw data stream and depends on software (on the computer or TV) to detect the stream and start capturing/playing. Not saying it is impossible, but given a) the fact they are already working with Firestore, and b) that they have such a large investment in P2 technology, it seems unlikely that they would support generic firewire hard drives. Hope I'm wrong though. Ben P.S. What is the sustained data rate on the inexpensive small firewire hard drives? Is it enough to support DVC PRO HD (100 Mbps, roughly 13 MB/s) without dropped frames? __________________ Ben Buie, Producer "On Our Way Up" - Shot Completely in HDV http://www.onourwayup.com HD Articles and Reviews at HDSource! http://hdsource.highlydef.com

April 19th, 2005, 01:42 PM	#54
Kevin Dooley Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 414	Well, this camera is a slightly different beast than most anything else on the market right now... It's already encoding the footage into MXF files to place on the P2 cards... so why can't it send that data stream over the firewire or USB port to a harddrive, just like transfering files from harddrive to harddrive, or USB drive to SATA drive or whatever... in fact, when you use the P2 cards in camer and hook the cam up via firewire and/or USB, the computer supposedly will see the camera as a hdd or other storage device... So I think it's fairly likely that Panasonic CAN make this work... it's just a matter of do they WANT to... __________________ Kevin Dooley Media Director, Pantego Bible Church

April 19th, 2005, 02:32 PM	#56
Kevin Dooley Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 414	Not to nitpick or anything, but the JVC cam will be using a firestore device designed for JVC, just like the 5000 did (I believe it was the 5000, wasn't it?), not an internal harddrive. __________________ Kevin Dooley Media Director, Pantego Bible Church

April 19th, 2005, 03:02 PM	#58
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Barry, where is this confirmed? Not saying it's not true, but I'd like to hear it from a Panasonic rep myself. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

April 19th, 2005, 07:57 AM	#47
Dylan Pank Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 611	I have to say I'm now extremely sceptical about this now. All this talk of "Panasonic techs streaming to an iPod" seems to have come from an experiment that BlackMagic design did playing BACK from (not recording to) an iPod, nothing to do with Panasonic other than by coincidence they happened to utilise the DVCproHD codec. I think the answer for those wanting >1 hour runtimes (or even >8 minutes) will be firestore type devices rather than off the shelf HDs. Right now one of those costs what a P2 8GB card. Should they get such a time running with the HVX, I'd rather have one of those bundled with a HVX than 2 P2 cards.

April 19th, 2005, 08:43 AM	#48
Shealan Forshaw New Boot Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 21	The best workfow would probably to record to a single 8gb P2 card. Then dump the footage down to a drive each time you are happy with the shots, wipe the P2, and fill up again, rinse and repeat.

April 19th, 2005, 09:00 AM	#49
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	I wonder if, just like with all memory cartridges, it will be long before other companies start offering 'P2 Compatible' cartridges, at half the price.

April 19th, 2005, 12:57 PM	#52
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	Ah that's great news. That's a sure-fire way to make sure that P2 sticks around.

April 19th, 2005, 02:56 PM	#57
Barry Schmetter Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Washington DC Posts: 38	It's already confirmed that the HVX200 will be able to dump files from the P2 cards directly to off-the-shelf hard drives plugged into the camera. That's confirmed. So the HVX200 already has the ability to act as a HDD controller. As Jeff mentioned, many currently shipping drives will be able to handle the data stream. I think there's some concern on Panasonic's part regarding the variety of devices that might be plugged in and how to support this feature. For instance, an iPod might be able to handle the DVCPRO50 stream and only some of the smaller HD streams. So naturally, you'll have users trying to shoot all day in 1080 30P with their first generation iPods and cursing Panasonic's name. Maybe they can include it as an "undocumented feature".

April 19th, 2005, 03:10 PM	#59
Kevin Wild Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 540	I'm not sure I get it (or maybe it's that others aren't) but why do we need to worry about a HD being fast enough to handle the HD stream. It's data. I don't want to edit from my iPod. I just want a place to put the data (video) so I can free up a P2 card. If it takes a little longer because it's a slower harddrive, fine. It seems to me unless Panasonic does something to actually disable this function, it should be easy. It's just transferring a file from one harddrive (P2) to another (external harddrive, iPod, whatever). Am I oversimplifying this? KW

April 19th, 2005, 03:10 PM	#60
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I spent three hours with Jan and Phil Livingston, going through every aspect of the camera that I could, and verifying the workflow in every possible way. They told me that the dub feature allows you to dub the contents of the P2 card over to either tape (which would involve downrezzing to DV) or over to a hard disk, and that's what the SPB2 protocol is for. The camera supports both AVC and SPB2, AVC is the protocol used when a camera and deck are talking to each other, SPB2 is the protocol used for file transfer. When using SPB2, you can transfer files directly off of the P2 card to a USB2 hard disk.