HDX100 Tape vs. Drive vs. Solid State at DVinfo.net

Barry Green · February 16th, 2005, 11:49 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Pete Wilie : I wonder why a storage solution like the JVC GY-DV5000U uses was not considered: Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD -->>>

Who says it wasn't considered? And who says they won't do it?

Remember, NO DETAILS have been released yet! We don't know what the camera can do, and we don't know what it can't do, and we don't know what accessories will be supported and which ones won't.

Maybe they'll have a removable hard-disk accessory exactly like what you speculate about. Maybe it'll be built-in. We don't know yet -- no details have been released at all, other than that it will have P2 (but that doesn't mean it will or won't have tape or HD), it will be DVCPRO50/25/HD, and it'll be priced "competitive with the Sony", and that it'll have 24p recording (but that doesn't mean it'll only be 24p... it could be 60p as well, for all we know).

Which is really to say -- we don't know anything yet. And we won't until April 18th.

Bob Costa · February 17th, 2005, 07:07 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : We don't know yet -- no details have been released at all, other than that it will have P2 (but that doesn't mean it will or won't have tape or HD), it will be DVCPRO50/25/HD, and it'll be priced "competitive with the Sony", and that it'll have 24p recording (but that doesn't mean it'll only be 24p... it could be 60p as well, for all we know).

Which is really to say -- we don't know anything yet. And we won't until April 18th. -->>>

I have been confused for most of this thread. If we **KNOW** that it will have P2 and be DVCPRO50/25/HD, don't we **KNOW** that it will have tape storage? Isn't DVCPRO a TAPE format, and aren't DVCPRO25/50/HD three different implementations of a TAPE format? How much more clearly could it have been said without a picture (or a video)?

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 17th, 2005, 09:17 AM

> I have been confused for most of this thread. If we **KNOW**
> that it will have P2 and be DVCPRO50/25/HD, don't we
> **KNOW** that it will have tape storage? Isn't DVCPRO a
> TAPE format, and aren't DVCPRO25/50/HD three different
> implementations of a TAPE format? How much more clearly
> could it have been said without a picture (or a video)?

We believe... well --I beleive, and I think some other of us may believe-- that it is unlikely Panasonic can go below US$10k with a tape transport that does higher data rates than 25 Mbps. 25 Mbps tape hardware is mass produced and thus very cheap, and that is probably why Sony, JVC et al took all that trouble to cram HD MPEG into that rate. However, thanks to the PC revolution and it's constant demonstration of Moore's law in action, a PC-card interface is far cheaper. So it makes sense to put both a MiniDV tape drive and a PC-card interface (same thing as P2 it seems) in the same camera. You can shoot DV out of the box, read your old tapes and perhaps even assemble on the card. AND you spend the extra $, pop in a card and have instant HD capability, without the MPEG2 compromise.

Guess what Sony will do next: the same thing, but instead of solid state they will go optical. XDCAM is great, but a PC card interface is much more versatile, and opens the way for the day when solid state is cheap enough to compete with tape and hard disks. It future-proofs the camera you buy today.

I think Panasonic would be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't allow the interface to be usable by third parties. It would be as if Sony made their cameras only compatible with Sony DV tape. Doesn't make any sense.

Lawrence Bansbach · February 17th, 2005, 04:13 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : It would be as if Sony made their cameras only compatible with Sony DV tape. Doesn't make any sense. -->>>

Actually, even though standard mini-DV tapes will work in the FX1 and Z1, Sony strongly suggests, to minimize potentially catastrophic dropouts, that you use their tapes specially formulated for HDV.

Barry Green · February 17th, 2005, 07:23 PM

Quote:

4 minutes sounds like a joke. :(
Why they don't want to use cassettes or 2,5'' HDDs (80 Gb)?

Who says they don't? Who says there won't be 80-gb hard disks in use? Nobody's ruled that out, or confirmed it or whatever. There very well could be such a thing. And who says there's not a FireStore type of device coming, that'll let you record three hours on an interchangeable $60 hard disk?

I'm not saying there is, all I'm saying is... people are getting worked up over these "limitations", and so far nobody's confirmed that there ARE any limitations.

As for 4 minutes, that would only be if you were shooting 720/60p or 1080/60i. We don't even know if the camera will support those frame rates. All we know is that it'll support 24p, and at 720/24p it could get 10-12 minutes on a 4gb P2 card.

Zack Birlew · February 17th, 2005, 09:49 PM

Darnit, I wish April would hurry it's Krispy Kreme-munchin' fat arse up and come around already! We're all dieing here! =D

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 18th, 2005, 08:16 AM

> Actually, even though standard mini-DV tapes will work in the FX1
> and Z1, Sony strongly suggests, to minimize potentially catastrophic
> dropouts, that you use their tapes specially formulated for HDV.

That's right, and it makes sense because dropouts are more critical with HDV than with DV, and it's fair because Sony doesn't make you use their tapes, it only makes the suggestion and markets their new, better, more expensive option so we can decide if we want it or not. That's fine with me. It would be however something totally different if Sony put electronics on the camera and tapes that kept you from using tapes from other manufacterers. I can barely stand what they are doing with batteries and the dumbing-down of the FX1. I would not buy such a crippled camera. And I will not buy an HDX100 or HDX400 if only Panasonic cards can be inserted into it's PC-card slot. Period.

Gary McClurg · February 18th, 2005, 08:46 AM

Jack, not sure if you saw this.

But here's a report about the FCP 5 or its what is rumored to be happening. My hope is that the HDX will be out not long after NAB.

That's why the rumors. It makes sense they have to give the trade magazines time to get their mags ready for the NAB issue.

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0502fcp5.html

FCP already has the codec and I also keep hearing about H.264 or something like that when Tiger hits around June.

I think it keeps the quality of HD but it'll use up a lot less space.

Zack Birlew · February 18th, 2005, 09:51 AM

Hmmmm, thanks for the interesting info Gary! I've always been interested in FCP, but I didn't think it was worth it having to buy a Mac and all that especially when I could get a faster PC setup with Adobe Premiere or some other NLE's, but lately I've been contemplating it. I am stuck with Premiere 6.5 after all, so I could pretty much go any way as far as NLE's go.

Though, I wonder, if Apple's showing off FCP 5, then won't the other NLE makers (besides AVID which we all know has AVID HD) be introducing new versions as well?

This is such an exciting time!

Joshua Starnes · February 18th, 2005, 11:02 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : Hmmmm, thanks for the interesting info Gary! I've always been interested in FCP, but I didn't think it was worth it having to buy a Mac and all that especially when I could get a faster PC setup with Adobe Premiere or some other NLE's, -->>>

Unless that other NLE is Avid, it doesn't matter how much faster the PC setup is. FCP on even an older Mac will beat it for versatility just about every time.

I've used Vegas and I've used Premier and I've used Edition, and I've gotten pretty good with them. They're all fine programs - but none of them are FCP.

Zack Birlew · February 18th, 2005, 01:47 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Joshua Starnes : Unless that other NLE is Avid, it doesn't matter how much faster the PC setup is. FCP on even an older Mac will beat it for versatility just about every time.

I've used Vegas and I've used Premier and I've used Edition, and I've gotten pretty good with them. They're all fine programs - but none of them are FCP. -->>>

Well, yeah, Joshua. That's what I mean. FCP has just been shown to be so flexible that you can do anything with it! Look, they've used FCP for so many recent big-hit movies such as Cold Mountain, Lord of the Rings Trilogy, and I think even The Matrix Trilogy if I'm not mistaken. So of course I'm interested. This whole HDX100 thing helps a lot too because now my NLE choice isn't HDV-limited so now FCP has come back into the fold for me because it supports just about every codec available and can edit film to boot. But aren't we getting a little off topic now? ^_^

I was thinking, what does DVCPROHD bring to the whole distribution question? Will we be able to put our HD movies onto DVD or will we still have to wait for HDVD and Blueray a'la the whole HDV conundrum? At least a half an hour per disc?

Peter Jefferson · February 22nd, 2005, 03:35 AM

panasonic are touting blu ray as being the archiving medium for DVCProHD... so yes, most likely blue ray or HDDVD will be he delivery option...

Barry Green · February 22nd, 2005, 11:31 AM

Yeah, DVD is an SD delivery medium, so if you want to distribute your content to end users, you'll still need to wait for HD-DVD (or blu-ray) to reach mass adoption levels by the consumers.

Or, get it broadcast. Or downrez and master to standard-def DVD.

Or maybe internet download/broadcast will catch on... getting HD content to the end consumer is still a question mark as to how it'll be accomplished.

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 1st, 2005, 08:11 AM

> getting HD content to the end consumer is still a
> question mark as to how it'll be accomplished.

I think this is a question that is being answered. HD broadcasting is already a reality in the US and the 'net thing will also catch on, especially when deployment of IPv6 and multicast is widespread.

The question which worries me is whether the consumer will notice or care about the difference. I know HD is better, you know HD is better but for many consumer the awesome quality of DVD compared to analog broadcast is enough, and I'm afraid they will not pay for the added value of HD.

Brandon Greenlee · March 2nd, 2005, 07:29 PM

I agree with this. You would be suprised at what percentage of the population thinks this new generation thing of dvd's is actually high definition media.

I think we are going to have alot more trouble trying to convert people over to hd than we did getting them from vhs to dvd.

February 16th, 2005, 11:49 PM	#1
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Re: Why Not Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD <<<-- Originally posted by Pete Wilie : I wonder why a storage solution like the JVC GY-DV5000U uses was not considered: Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD -->>> Who says it wasn't considered? And who says they won't do it? Remember, NO DETAILS have been released yet! We don't know what the camera can do, and we don't know what it can't do, and we don't know what accessories will be supported and which ones won't. Maybe they'll have a removable hard-disk accessory exactly like what you speculate about. Maybe it'll be built-in. We don't know yet -- no details have been released at all, other than that it will have P2 (but that doesn't mean it will or won't have tape or HD), it will be DVCPRO50/25/HD, and it'll be priced "competitive with the Sony", and that it'll have 24p recording (but that doesn't mean it'll only be 24p... it could be 60p as well, for all we know). Which is really to say -- we don't know anything yet. And we won't until April 18th.

February 17th, 2005, 07:07 AM	#2
Bob Costa Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Venice, FL Posts: 850	Re: Re: Why Not Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD <<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : We don't know yet -- no details have been released at all, other than that it will have P2 (but that doesn't mean it will or won't have tape or HD), it will be DVCPRO50/25/HD, and it'll be priced "competitive with the Sony", and that it'll have 24p recording (but that doesn't mean it'll only be 24p... it could be 60p as well, for all we know). Which is really to say -- we don't know anything yet. And we won't until April 18th. -->>> I have been confused for most of this thread. If we KNOW that it will have P2 and be DVCPRO50/25/HD, don't we KNOW that it will have tape storage? Isn't DVCPRO a TAPE format, and aren't DVCPRO25/50/HD three different implementations of a TAPE format? How much more clearly could it have been said without a picture (or a video)? __________________ You are either growing or dying.

February 17th, 2005, 09:17 AM	#3
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> I have been confused for most of this thread. If we KNOW > that it will have P2 and be DVCPRO50/25/HD, don't we > KNOW that it will have tape storage? Isn't DVCPRO a > TAPE format, and aren't DVCPRO25/50/HD three different > implementations of a TAPE format? How much more clearly > could it have been said without a picture (or a video)? We believe... well --I beleive, and I think some other of us may believe-- that it is unlikely Panasonic can go below US$10k with a tape transport that does higher data rates than 25 Mbps. 25 Mbps tape hardware is mass produced and thus very cheap, and that is probably why Sony, JVC et al took all that trouble to cram HD MPEG into that rate. However, thanks to the PC revolution and it's constant demonstration of Moore's law in action, a PC-card interface is far cheaper. So it makes sense to put both a MiniDV tape drive and a PC-card interface (same thing as P2 it seems) in the same camera. You can shoot DV out of the box, read your old tapes and perhaps even assemble on the card. AND you spend the extra $, pop in a card and have instant HD capability, without the MPEG2 compromise. Guess what Sony will do next: the same thing, but instead of solid state they will go optical. XDCAM is great, but a PC card interface is much more versatile, and opens the way for the day when solid state is cheap enough to compete with tape and hard disks. It future-proofs the camera you buy today. I think Panasonic would be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't allow the interface to be usable by third parties. It would be as if Sony made their cameras only compatible with Sony DV tape. Doesn't make any sense. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 17th, 2005, 09:49 PM	#6
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	Darnit, I wish April would hurry it's Krispy Kreme-munchin' fat arse up and come around already! We're all dieing here! =D __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

February 18th, 2005, 08:16 AM	#7
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> Actually, even though standard mini-DV tapes will work in the FX1 > and Z1, Sony strongly suggests, to minimize potentially catastrophic > dropouts, that you use their tapes specially formulated for HDV. That's right, and it makes sense because dropouts are more critical with HDV than with DV, and it's fair because Sony doesn't make you use their tapes, it only makes the suggestion and markets their new, better, more expensive option so we can decide if we want it or not. That's fine with me. It would be however something totally different if Sony put electronics on the camera and tapes that kept you from using tapes from other manufacterers. I can barely stand what they are doing with batteries and the dumbing-down of the FX1. I would not buy such a crippled camera. And I will not buy an HDX100 or HDX400 if only Panasonic cards can be inserted into it's PC-card slot. Period. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 17th, 2005, 04:13 PM	#4
Lawrence Bansbach Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 295	<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : It would be as if Sony made their cameras only compatible with Sony DV tape. Doesn't make any sense. -->>> Actually, even though standard mini-DV tapes will work in the FX1 and Z1, Sony strongly suggests, to minimize potentially catastrophic dropouts, that you use their tapes specially formulated for HDV.

February 18th, 2005, 08:46 AM	#8
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	Jack, not sure if you saw this. But here's a report about the FCP 5 or its what is rumored to be happening. My hope is that the HDX will be out not long after NAB. That's why the rumors. It makes sense they have to give the trade magazines time to get their mags ready for the NAB issue. http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0502fcp5.html FCP already has the codec and I also keep hearing about H.264 or something like that when Tiger hits around June. I think it keeps the quality of HD but it'll use up a lot less space.

February 18th, 2005, 09:51 AM	#9
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	Hmmmm, thanks for the interesting info Gary! I've always been interested in FCP, but I didn't think it was worth it having to buy a Mac and all that especially when I could get a faster PC setup with Adobe Premiere or some other NLE's, but lately I've been contemplating it. I am stuck with Premiere 6.5 after all, so I could pretty much go any way as far as NLE's go. Though, I wonder, if Apple's showing off FCP 5, then won't the other NLE makers (besides AVID which we all know has AVID HD) be introducing new versions as well? This is such an exciting time! __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

February 18th, 2005, 11:02 AM	#10
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : Hmmmm, thanks for the interesting info Gary! I've always been interested in FCP, but I didn't think it was worth it having to buy a Mac and all that especially when I could get a faster PC setup with Adobe Premiere or some other NLE's, -->>> Unless that other NLE is Avid, it doesn't matter how much faster the PC setup is. FCP on even an older Mac will beat it for versatility just about every time. I've used Vegas and I've used Premier and I've used Edition, and I've gotten pretty good with them. They're all fine programs - but none of them are FCP.

February 18th, 2005, 01:47 PM	#11
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	<<<-- Originally posted by Joshua Starnes : Unless that other NLE is Avid, it doesn't matter how much faster the PC setup is. FCP on even an older Mac will beat it for versatility just about every time. I've used Vegas and I've used Premier and I've used Edition, and I've gotten pretty good with them. They're all fine programs - but none of them are FCP. -->>> Well, yeah, Joshua. That's what I mean. FCP has just been shown to be so flexible that you can do anything with it! Look, they've used FCP for so many recent big-hit movies such as Cold Mountain, Lord of the Rings Trilogy, and I think even The Matrix Trilogy if I'm not mistaken. So of course I'm interested. This whole HDX100 thing helps a lot too because now my NLE choice isn't HDV-limited so now FCP has come back into the fold for me because it supports just about every codec available and can edit film to boot. But aren't we getting a little off topic now? ^_^ I was thinking, what does DVCPROHD bring to the whole distribution question? Will we be able to put our HD movies onto DVD or will we still have to wait for HDVD and Blueray a'la the whole HDV conundrum? At least a half an hour per disc? __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

February 22nd, 2005, 03:35 AM	#12
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	panasonic are touting blu ray as being the archiving medium for DVCProHD... so yes, most likely blue ray or HDDVD will be he delivery option...

February 22nd, 2005, 11:31 AM	#13
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Yeah, DVD is an SD delivery medium, so if you want to distribute your content to end users, you'll still need to wait for HD-DVD (or blu-ray) to reach mass adoption levels by the consumers. Or, get it broadcast. Or downrez and master to standard-def DVD. Or maybe internet download/broadcast will catch on... getting HD content to the end consumer is still a question mark as to how it'll be accomplished.

March 1st, 2005, 08:11 AM	#14
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> getting HD content to the end consumer is still a > question mark as to how it'll be accomplished. I think this is a question that is being answered. HD broadcasting is already a reality in the US and the 'net thing will also catch on, especially when deployment of IPv6 and multicast is widespread. The question which worries me is whether the consumer will notice or care about the difference. I know HD is better, you know HD is better but for many consumer the awesome quality of DVD compared to analog broadcast is enough, and I'm afraid they will not pay for the added value of HD. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 2nd, 2005, 07:29 PM	#15
Brandon Greenlee Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: North Alabama Posts: 242	I agree with this. You would be suprised at what percentage of the population thinks this new generation thing of dvd's is actually high definition media. I think we are going to have alot more trouble trying to convert people over to hd than we did getting them from vhs to dvd. __________________ Brandon Greenlee