HDX100 Tape vs. Drive vs. Solid State

John A. Davies · March 3rd, 2005, 05:35 AM

I'm not sure if I agree. I see it like the video game industry whcih I believe is making as much money as the film industry these days, taking Nintendo for example. Compare an original NES to VHS, when Nintendo brought out their next cosole it took a lot of people a while to switch over but now a game system only has a four year life span with a new System costing around $500 and games $70 (Canadian). DVD got people used to the idea of spending money to get a higher quality experience and if HDDVD and Blue Ray are marketed well people will probably buy both without an issue. In video game terms it would be like owning a Playstation and an Xbox.

Kevin Dooley · March 3rd, 2005, 07:41 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : > for many consumer the awesome quality of DVD compared to analog broadcast is enough, and I'm afraid they will not pay for the added value of HD. -->>>

Well, that's why we have to say our thanks to the gods of marketing and sales, who have been talking people into chic, stylish, and trendy (yeah, I know all 3 mean the same thing) flat panels. In a traditional American rush to "Keep up with the Jones's" Americans are looking more and more to HDTV sets and they're realizing that DVD don't look as good as it used to anymore... I know that the market saturation isn't quite there yet... but neither or the HD disc formats have even released a product yet. My lovely parents (who, God bless 'em) are the most technically backwards people alive, and aren't that discerning when it comes to video quality (Oh the horrors of VHS I endure when I visit them...) have said that when they're current TV craps out, they will at least get one of the $800 HD CRT's that are out there... HDTV saturation is coming (in America at least)--the marketing machine is hard at work, and from conversations I've had with people of all income categories, it's working... which means they'll be clamoring for some type of HD disc format...

Just my thoughts...

Jan Crittenden Livingston · March 5th, 2005, 09:12 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : I guess I didn't make my point very clear. I will try again: if the AJ-HDX100 and AJ-HDX400 have P2 slots,

Hi Ignacio,

The HDX400 does not have P2 cards. There are three, this new little one, the AJ-SPC700, to be introduced at NAB, which is a shoulder size camera, that is DVCPRO only, no24P and the AJ-SPX800.

>Perhaps that IS the Panasonic strategy and we will see P2 cards with IBM microdrives inside instead of the more robust solid state versions of the cards for professionals.

I don't believe the micro drives have the write speed.

>Of course, just like Sony makes you use their batteries with some camcorders, Panasonic could keep us from using anything but a Panasonic-branded mega-$ card. But I hope they don't do that.

As with any commodity, all it takes is consumer demand. It took almost three years before Maxell started to make DVCPRO tape. There are over 100 manufacturers that make SD memory, and over 500 that utilize it. It is a matter of time and demand.

Best regards,

Jan

Claude Isbell · March 6th, 2005, 01:38 PM

Thanks Jan.

There was a quote on camcorderinfo from Jan at Panasonic saying it would not have tape or any moving parts. Just from experience as well as gut feeling, I'll go out on a limb and say, unless it's not going to be released for a year or more after NAB, it's a big mistake. It's definitly the future, but the future can be too early. I hope I'm wrong, it sounds awesome. Panasonic has done so well with the DVX100. So much of it was from people that could barely afford it, but did what they had to to get it. Going by the info I had, not just speculation, even if it's $5000, with a couple of cards, you're talking the $15,000 range. I think, again, unless it's not released for awhile, that for a long time, more people will be rentig than buying. That's definitely not the case with the DVX100.

Chris Hurd · March 6th, 2005, 02:09 PM

Howdy from Texas,

<< There was a quote on camcorderinfo from Jan at Panasonic saying it would not have tape or any moving parts. >>

Actually she said that right here on DV Info Net. See the first post in this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=39453: "...this little camera will not record to tape, rather to memory, P2 cards. No moving parts except those in the lens."

Regarding media costs, an 8GB P2 array of four 2GB SD cards will allow for 32 minutes of DVCPro, 16 minutes of DVCPro 50, and 8 minutes of DVCPro HD without breaking the bank and would make a good starter solution. It shouldn't take too long for a 16GB P2 array of four 4GB SD cards to become affordable, and that would give you more than an hour of DVCPro, over half an hour of DVCPro 50 and 16 minutes of DVCPro HD.

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 6th, 2005, 04:10 PM

> I don't believe the micro drives have the write speed.

They don't by themselves. They would need to be combined into an array inside the PC card. But the 5 GB drives from Toshiba seem to be fast enough, and toshiba has much larger drives in the same form factor so there is the potential for much larger capacities:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=316612&is=REG

Luis Caffesse · March 6th, 2005, 04:14 PM

"an 8GB P2 array of four 2GB SD cards will allow for 32 minutes of DVCPro, 16 minutes of DVCPro 50, and 8 minutes of DVCPro HD"

Well, seeing as this camera is recording to P2 cards instead of tape, it's conceivable that there would be no reason to record the duplicate frames the Varicam records.

(I realize this has already been talked about a bit here).

If that's true, then when shooting at 24P you should actually be able to get about 27 minutes of DVCProHD footage on an 8Gb card.

By the way, is DVCPro50 actually shooting 50mbs when shooting 24P?

Seems odd that the datarate on HD would be 10mbs lower than SD.

PS -
By the way Jan, thank you very much for your contribution to these boards. It's safe to assume that you're a very busy person, and the fact that you take the time out to post and reply here is GREATLY appreciated.

Chris Hurd · March 6th, 2005, 04:24 PM

<< By the way Jan, thank you very much for your contribution to these boards. It's safe to assume that you're a very busy person, and the fact that you take the time out to post and reply here is GREATLY appreciated. >>

I second that emotion!

Cheers,

Barry Green · March 6th, 2005, 10:04 PM

Quote:

By the way, is DVCPro50 actually shooting 50mbs when shooting 24P?

Yes, because DVCPRO50 doesn't have a way to record progressive frames, it's an interlace-only recording format, so it carries the 24P footage within a 60i stream, the same way as it does on DV.

Quote:

Seems odd that the datarate on HD would be 10mbs lower than SD.

Well, yes it does... but with DVCPRO50, 10mbps is indeed "unused", when looking at the raw footage -- there are four frames that are unique, and then a fifth "pulldown" frame to round out the sequence and keep it compatible with 60i. Whereas with DVCPRO-HD, they store only the active frames. DVCPRO-HD has a higher compression ratio (about 6.7:1) vs. DVCPRO-50 (about 3.3:1).

Luis Caffesse · March 7th, 2005, 07:35 AM

Thanks for the reply Barry.
That cleared up things a lot.

Chris Hurd · March 9th, 2005, 12:06 AM

Howdy from Texas,

This thread is another split from Kurth Bousman's original Panasonic AJ-HDX100 topic. Here we have some really good exchanges about camcorder tape transports vs. built-in or external hard drives vs. solid state (P2), and how DVCPro 50 and DVCPro HD is recorded... all in all, an excellent subject, in my opinion.

March 3rd, 2005, 07:41 AM	#17
Kevin Dooley Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 414	<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : > for many consumer the awesome quality of DVD compared to analog broadcast is enough, and I'm afraid they will not pay for the added value of HD. -->>> Well, that's why we have to say our thanks to the gods of marketing and sales, who have been talking people into chic, stylish, and trendy (yeah, I know all 3 mean the same thing) flat panels. In a traditional American rush to "Keep up with the Jones's" Americans are looking more and more to HDTV sets and they're realizing that DVD don't look as good as it used to anymore... I know that the market saturation isn't quite there yet... but neither or the HD disc formats have even released a product yet. My lovely parents (who, God bless 'em) are the most technically backwards people alive, and aren't that discerning when it comes to video quality (Oh the horrors of VHS I endure when I visit them...) have said that when they're current TV craps out, they will at least get one of the $800 HD CRT's that are out there... HDTV saturation is coming (in America at least)--the marketing machine is hard at work, and from conversations I've had with people of all income categories, it's working... which means they'll be clamoring for some type of HD disc format... Just my thoughts... __________________ Kevin Dooley Media Director, Pantego Bible Church

March 6th, 2005, 02:09 PM	#20
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Howdy from Texas, << There was a quote on camcorderinfo from Jan at Panasonic saying it would not have tape or any moving parts. >> Actually she said that right here on DV Info Net. See the first post in this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=39453: "...this little camera will not record to tape, rather to memory, P2 cards. No moving parts except those in the lens." Regarding media costs, an 8GB P2 array of four 2GB SD cards will allow for 32 minutes of DVCPro, 16 minutes of DVCPro 50, and 8 minutes of DVCPro HD without breaking the bank and would make a good starter solution. It shouldn't take too long for a 16GB P2 array of four 4GB SD cards to become affordable, and that would give you more than an hour of DVCPro, over half an hour of DVCPro 50 and 16 minutes of DVCPro HD. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 6th, 2005, 04:10 PM	#21
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> I don't believe the micro drives have the write speed. They don't by themselves. They would need to be combined into an array inside the PC card. But the 5 GB drives from Toshiba seem to be fast enough, and toshiba has much larger drives in the same form factor so there is the potential for much larger capacities: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=316612&is=REG __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 6th, 2005, 04:14 PM	#22
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	8Gb will do me just fine "an 8GB P2 array of four 2GB SD cards will allow for 32 minutes of DVCPro, 16 minutes of DVCPro 50, and 8 minutes of DVCPro HD" Well, seeing as this camera is recording to P2 cards instead of tape, it's conceivable that there would be no reason to record the duplicate frames the Varicam records. (I realize this has already been talked about a bit here). If that's true, then when shooting at 24P you should actually be able to get about 27 minutes of DVCProHD footage on an 8Gb card. By the way, is DVCPro50 actually shooting 50mbs when shooting 24P? Seems odd that the datarate on HD would be 10mbs lower than SD. PS - By the way Jan, thank you very much for your contribution to these boards. It's safe to assume that you're a very busy person, and the fact that you take the time out to post and reply here is GREATLY appreciated. __________________ Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas

March 6th, 2005, 04:24 PM	#23
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	<< By the way Jan, thank you very much for your contribution to these boards. It's safe to assume that you're a very busy person, and the fact that you take the time out to post and reply here is GREATLY appreciated. >> I second that emotion! Cheers, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 3rd, 2005, 05:35 AM	#16
John A. Davies New Boot Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Dartmouth, Canada Posts: 16	I'm not sure if I agree. I see it like the video game industry whcih I believe is making as much money as the film industry these days, taking Nintendo for example. Compare an original NES to VHS, when Nintendo brought out their next cosole it took a lot of people a while to switch over but now a game system only has a four year life span with a new System costing around $500 and games $70 (Canadian). DVD got people used to the idea of spending money to get a higher quality experience and if HDDVD and Blue Ray are marketed well people will probably buy both without an issue. In video game terms it would be like owning a Playstation and an Xbox.

March 5th, 2005, 09:12 AM	#18
Jan Crittenden Livingston Panasonic Broadcast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Secaucus, NJ 07094 Posts: 271	<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : I guess I didn't make my point very clear. I will try again: if the AJ-HDX100 and AJ-HDX400 have P2 slots, Hi Ignacio, The HDX400 does not have P2 cards. There are three, this new little one, the AJ-SPC700, to be introduced at NAB, which is a shoulder size camera, that is DVCPRO only, no24P and the AJ-SPX800. >Perhaps that IS the Panasonic strategy and we will see P2 cards with IBM microdrives inside instead of the more robust solid state versions of the cards for professionals. I don't believe the micro drives have the write speed. >Of course, just like Sony makes you use their batteries with some camcorders, Panasonic could keep us from using anything but a Panasonic-branded mega-$ card. But I hope they don't do that. As with any commodity, all it takes is consumer demand. It took almost three years before Maxell started to make DVCPRO tape. There are over 100 manufacturers that make SD memory, and over 500 that utilize it. It is a matter of time and demand. Best regards, Jan

March 6th, 2005, 01:38 PM	#19
Claude Isbell Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ny,ny Posts: 52	Thanks Jan. There was a quote on camcorderinfo from Jan at Panasonic saying it would not have tape or any moving parts. Just from experience as well as gut feeling, I'll go out on a limb and say, unless it's not going to be released for a year or more after NAB, it's a big mistake. It's definitly the future, but the future can be too early. I hope I'm wrong, it sounds awesome. Panasonic has done so well with the DVX100. So much of it was from people that could barely afford it, but did what they had to to get it. Going by the info I had, not just speculation, even if it's $5000, with a couple of cards, you're talking the $15,000 range. I think, again, unless it's not released for awhile, that for a long time, more people will be rentig than buying. That's definitely not the case with the DVX100.

March 7th, 2005, 07:35 AM	#25
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	Thanks for the reply Barry. That cleared up things a lot. __________________ Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas

March 9th, 2005, 12:06 AM	#26
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Howdy from Texas, This thread is another split from Kurth Bousman's original Panasonic AJ-HDX100 topic. Here we have some really good exchanges about camcorder tape transports vs. built-in or external hard drives vs. solid state (P2), and how DVCPro 50 and DVCPro HD is recorded... all in all, an excellent subject, in my opinion. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!