HVX200 Pricing Speculation

Michael Pappas · March 20th, 2005, 08:31 PM

Since P2 uses sd cards from what i gather. A 4gig card to shouldn't sell for to much. Remember what we pay for SD cards is much more then it costs for them to make them. I can get Lexar 1 gigs for about 80 to 90 bucks. The PC card technology is 50 bucks worth of materials. So these P2 cards shouldn't cost all that much, unless there is something I'm missing.

Barry Green · March 20th, 2005, 09:36 PM

The SD cards form the basis of the P2 card, each P2 card holds 4 SD cards, and then there's some hardware to basically stripe the SD cards into a RAID to get the transfer speed up high enough for them to be usable for HD or DVCPRO-50 data.

As SD cards come down in price, that seems like it should have a corollary relationship with P2 card prices. Let's hope it works that way in reality.

Laurence Maher · March 21st, 2005, 03:29 AM

Man, come on guys . . .

People pay 10 k for a car/ a used one that is/ 15 to 20 k for a new one. They probably pick a "comfortable" car as opposed to a economic car, which brings it up even more. They drive the car a few years and it starts having problems and more money goes into it . . . yada, yada.

You're telling me that you guys, being "filmmakers", and that's what you wanted to be all your lives, suddenly have the opportunity to spend roughly 10k on a camera that at the very least lets you truely compete with major motion picture filmmaking. (Like Once Upon A Time in Mexico-resolution) and your going to complain about it. Please. This is a god send. For serious indie filmmakers anyway (not to say you're not serious). But the serious filmmaker, the guy who can't do anything else and be happy, the guy who MUST be a filmmaker to find enjoyment in life, has a real opportunity here to finally start doing what he always wanted; real movies on a budget. Once you have the camera and the editing system (like FCP HD) The rest of the expenses can go straight into sets or actors or having to pay your rent. If 10 k is all you have, then grab that camera, write a great script that all takes place in pretty much one setting (Like Resivoir Dogs/ most of it was in the warehouse with just a few simple scenes elsewhere and one simple bank heist scene that didn't really show anything but a little gunplay with blanks)

With this camera, you can do take after take without incurring extra costs. You can monitor the picture on set to see EXACTLY what you're getting. No hairs will get caught in a gate and screw up shooting days. The equipment is 10 times more portable and there are no fees for film/ processing/ excess lab costs/expensive camera rentals/ the pressure of insurance for renting equipment/whatever.

The point is, this one price of 10 k will give you a freedom like you've never had, with a quality that isn't too much of a compromise. Take your tiime to light it right and use that vectorscope and waveform monitor and pack that DVCProHD codec choc full of the best signal it can get, and believe me, you'll have a movie to be proud of, and one that can be shown in theaters without embarassment. For 10 k and a little hard work, the dreams of your movies have now gone from your head to your hands.

Don't knock it, USE IT. It's not going to get much cheaper than this for at least a few years, and by the time it does, you'll be competing with so many other HD indie films that yours will get lost in the mix. Grab that camera when it comes out and SHOOT THAT MOVIE.

If you need to, get that pizza job for a half year and save every penny you can. The camera will be worth it.

It is a blessing, not a curse.

Bill Anderson · March 21st, 2005, 09:53 AM

Well said laurence. This is an incredible opportunity for filmmakers.
And these are liberating times. In only five years I have learned enough about the craft of filmmaking to allow me to Shoot, edit, primary/secondary color correct, do a few modest effects and burn the lot to dvd for... and now in true HD24P for 10K and no deck required. Not much left to cry about.

Michael Pappas · March 21st, 2005, 10:50 AM

Hi Barry.. The SD cards have dropped quite a bit over the year. I have been doing this since the earlier eighties from film to HD and this is the first time we are getting really far away from analog/tape technology. I look forward to this. I hope Canon will also offer a memory based recording system too. I do wish Sony had on he FX1/Z1U.

I hate tape, Going back over twenty + years I have everything from umatic, 1"in Type A, 1" Type C you name it I've got it eeehhh! I even have some Recam and Mll Panasonic. So whatever comes out, I won't buy, if it only has tape. No more tape for me. Hard drives or Memory based media on this next camera only.

Michael Pappas
temp home page:
http://www.Pbase.com/arrfilms

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : The SD cards form the basis of the P2 card, each P2 card holds 4 SD cards, and then there's some hardware to basically stripe the SD cards into a RAID to get the transfer speed up high enough for them to be usable for HD or DVCPRO-50 data.

As SD cards come down in price, that seems like it should have a corollary relationship with P2 card prices. Let's hope it works that way in reality. -->>>

Jacques Mersereau · March 25th, 2005, 02:31 PM

You guys do know what JVC is supposed to be pricing their "pro HDV"
shoulder mount camera out at $20,000.00?

I would love a Canon XL3 that outputs DVCPro100 via firewire and I would gladly
pay $10K for just the body.

I think this new panny is going to have to be seriously limited in features in
order not to rival the varicam.

Aaron Shaw · March 25th, 2005, 03:11 PM

20K for JVCs 2/3" camera. JVC is coming out with a 1/3" camera with interchangable lenses for under 10K as well.

Jaime Valles · March 25th, 2005, 10:51 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau :
I think this new panny is going to have to be seriously limited in features in
order not to rival the varicam. -->>>

I have a feeling the main differences between the two are:

Varicam- 2/3" CCDs, interchangeable pro lenses, variable frame rate up to 60p, shoulder mount ENG style body, record to tape.

HDX- 1/3" CCDs, fixed lens, 24p/30p/60i only, palmcorder DVX size body, record to P2 or Firewire stream only.

To those that can afford it, the Varicam's features are well worth the price. For the rest of us, the HDX will seem like a miracle of cinematic engineering.

Jan Crittenden Livingston · March 26th, 2005, 08:06 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jaime Valles :
To those that can afford it, the Varicam's features are well worth the price. For the rest of us, the HDX will seem like a miracle of cinematic engineering. -->>>

Jaime, you are a very bright man. The Varicam will always be the coolest HD camera, on a price performance basis. Are there cameras that do more, yes; do they cost more, yes. Point here is, will the little camera be used on a VariCam shoot, yes. I can see this being the camera in the underwater housing, it costs less to insure. Or the crash cam, or the crane cam.

And then for the indy filmmaker that cannot afford the VariCam, it will be the main camera. We have worked very hard to put in as many features as is possible. I think many will agree. It is absolutely killling me that I can't say more, but soon, very soon.

Best,

Jan

Michael Pappas · March 26th, 2005, 10:36 AM

Jan, your wetting my appetite and NAB still feels like a year away though it's next month.

Jan I hope Panasonic is going to make enough of these to serve the demand?

Jan does Panasonic do firmware upgrades on there Varicam system, if so will that be something that might be done on this new HD camcorder?

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : <<<-- Originally posted by Jaime Valles :
To those that can afford it, the Varicam's features are well worth the price. For the rest of us, the HDX will seem like a miracle of cinematic engineering. -->>>

Jaime, you are a very bright man. The Varicam will always be the coolest HD camera, on a price performance basis. Are there cameras that do more, yes; do they cost more, yes. Point here is, will the little camera be used on a VariCam shoot, yes. I can see this being the camera in the underwater housing, it costs less to insure. Or the crash cam, or the crane cam.

And then for the indy filmmaker that cannot afford the VariCam, it will be the main camera. We have worked very hard to put in as many features as is possible. I think many will agree. It is absolutely killling me that I can't say more, but soon, very soon.

Best,

Jan -->>>

Anders Holck Petersen · March 27th, 2005, 01:22 PM

Jan, can you comment on if this will have 24p/30p/60i or 24p/25p/30p/50i/60i framerates, or said in another way, will it be international like Sony's Z1 and the Varicam, or regional like the DVX100a?

Obin Olson · March 30th, 2005, 08:59 PM

sorry I just dont' get it. I can get a 1 GIG SD memory card for $100!!! can someone not take them and build a "raid" for the p2 camera system? or better yet go out to a harddisk for HOURS and HOURS of HD footage? \\

what is it with this P2 stuff?

Chris Hurd · March 30th, 2005, 10:05 PM

The P2 system already *is* a RAID of four SD cards working together.

The advantage of P2 flash memory over hard drives is that recording to flash memory requires less power, is more quiet, and much more robust in terms of g-shock than hard drives.

Obin Olson · March 30th, 2005, 10:55 PM

what is the cost of 4 1 gig cards in the p2 system?

Michael Pappas · March 30th, 2005, 10:55 PM

100 bucks, hell I can get 1gigs for 75 bucks. I believe Panasonic is going to bring SD base P2 media cards to the level of a logical value.

The reason they have been very high priced is the result that P2 is a very very very niche technology at this current point and not many people own them at all. Actually I don't no anyone who knows anyone who knows so and so that owns or uses a P2 system.

When it goes mainstream soon, Panasonic will adjust the price for volume sales.

Michael Papppas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : sorry I just dont' get it. I can get a 1 GIG SD memory card for $100!!! can someone not take them and build a "raid" for the p2 camera system? or better yet go out to a harddisk for HOURS and HOURS of HD footage? \\

what is it with this P2 stuff? -->>>

March 25th, 2005, 02:31 PM	#66
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	You guys do know what JVC is supposed to be pricing their "pro HDV" shoulder mount camera out at $20,000.00? I would love a Canon XL3 that outputs DVCPro100 via firewire and I would gladly pay $10K for just the body. I think this new panny is going to have to be seriously limited in features in order not to rival the varicam. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

March 26th, 2005, 08:06 AM	#69
Jan Crittenden Livingston Panasonic Broadcast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Secaucus, NJ 07094 Posts: 271	<<<-- Originally posted by Jaime Valles : To those that can afford it, the Varicam's features are well worth the price. For the rest of us, the HDX will seem like a miracle of cinematic engineering. -->>> Jaime, you are a very bright man. The Varicam will always be the coolest HD camera, on a price performance basis. Are there cameras that do more, yes; do they cost more, yes. Point here is, will the little camera be used on a VariCam shoot, yes. I can see this being the camera in the underwater housing, it costs less to insure. Or the crash cam, or the crane cam. And then for the indy filmmaker that cannot afford the VariCam, it will be the main camera. We have worked very hard to put in as many features as is possible. I think many will agree. It is absolutely killling me that I can't say more, but soon, very soon. Best, Jan __________________ Jan Crittenden Livingston Panasonic Solutions Company, Product Manager for 3D and Handheld Cameras

March 30th, 2005, 10:05 PM	#73
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	The P2 system already is a RAID of four SD cards working together. The advantage of P2 flash memory over hard drives is that recording to flash memory requires less power, is more quiet, and much more robust in terms of g-shock than hard drives. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 20th, 2005, 08:31 PM	#61
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Since P2 uses sd cards from what i gather. A 4gig card to shouldn't sell for to much. Remember what we pay for SD cards is much more then it costs for them to make them. I can get Lexar 1 gigs for about 80 to 90 bucks. The PC card technology is 50 bucks worth of materials. So these P2 cards shouldn't cost all that much, unless there is something I'm missing.

March 20th, 2005, 09:36 PM	#62
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The SD cards form the basis of the P2 card, each P2 card holds 4 SD cards, and then there's some hardware to basically stripe the SD cards into a RAID to get the transfer speed up high enough for them to be usable for HD or DVCPRO-50 data. As SD cards come down in price, that seems like it should have a corollary relationship with P2 card prices. Let's hope it works that way in reality.

March 21st, 2005, 03:29 AM	#63
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Man, come on guys . . . People pay 10 k for a car/ a used one that is/ 15 to 20 k for a new one. They probably pick a "comfortable" car as opposed to a economic car, which brings it up even more. They drive the car a few years and it starts having problems and more money goes into it . . . yada, yada. You're telling me that you guys, being "filmmakers", and that's what you wanted to be all your lives, suddenly have the opportunity to spend roughly 10k on a camera that at the very least lets you truely compete with major motion picture filmmaking. (Like Once Upon A Time in Mexico-resolution) and your going to complain about it. Please. This is a god send. For serious indie filmmakers anyway (not to say you're not serious). But the serious filmmaker, the guy who can't do anything else and be happy, the guy who MUST be a filmmaker to find enjoyment in life, has a real opportunity here to finally start doing what he always wanted; real movies on a budget. Once you have the camera and the editing system (like FCP HD) The rest of the expenses can go straight into sets or actors or having to pay your rent. If 10 k is all you have, then grab that camera, write a great script that all takes place in pretty much one setting (Like Resivoir Dogs/ most of it was in the warehouse with just a few simple scenes elsewhere and one simple bank heist scene that didn't really show anything but a little gunplay with blanks) With this camera, you can do take after take without incurring extra costs. You can monitor the picture on set to see EXACTLY what you're getting. No hairs will get caught in a gate and screw up shooting days. The equipment is 10 times more portable and there are no fees for film/ processing/ excess lab costs/expensive camera rentals/ the pressure of insurance for renting equipment/whatever. The point is, this one price of 10 k will give you a freedom like you've never had, with a quality that isn't too much of a compromise. Take your tiime to light it right and use that vectorscope and waveform monitor and pack that DVCProHD codec choc full of the best signal it can get, and believe me, you'll have a movie to be proud of, and one that can be shown in theaters without embarassment. For 10 k and a little hard work, the dreams of your movies have now gone from your head to your hands. Don't knock it, USE IT. It's not going to get much cheaper than this for at least a few years, and by the time it does, you'll be competing with so many other HD indie films that yours will get lost in the mix. Grab that camera when it comes out and SHOOT THAT MOVIE. If you need to, get that pizza job for a half year and save every penny you can. The camera will be worth it. It is a blessing, not a curse.

March 21st, 2005, 09:53 AM	#64
Bill Anderson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ottawa. Canada Posts: 163	Well said laurence. This is an incredible opportunity for filmmakers. And these are liberating times. In only five years I have learned enough about the craft of filmmaking to allow me to Shoot, edit, primary/secondary color correct, do a few modest effects and burn the lot to dvd for... and now in true HD24P for 10K and no deck required. Not much left to cry about.

March 21st, 2005, 10:50 AM	#65
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Hi Barry.. The SD cards have dropped quite a bit over the year. I have been doing this since the earlier eighties from film to HD and this is the first time we are getting really far away from analog/tape technology. I look forward to this. I hope Canon will also offer a memory based recording system too. I do wish Sony had on he FX1/Z1U. I hate tape, Going back over twenty + years I have everything from umatic, 1"in Type A, 1" Type C you name it I've got it eeehhh! I even have some Recam and Mll Panasonic. So whatever comes out, I won't buy, if it only has tape. No more tape for me. Hard drives or Memory based media on this next camera only. Michael Pappas temp home page: http://www.Pbase.com/arrfilms <<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : The SD cards form the basis of the P2 card, each P2 card holds 4 SD cards, and then there's some hardware to basically stripe the SD cards into a RAID to get the transfer speed up high enough for them to be usable for HD or DVCPRO-50 data. As SD cards come down in price, that seems like it should have a corollary relationship with P2 card prices. Let's hope it works that way in reality. -->>>

March 25th, 2005, 03:11 PM	#67
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	20K for JVCs 2/3" camera. JVC is coming out with a 1/3" camera with interchangable lenses for under 10K as well.

March 25th, 2005, 10:51 PM	#68
Jaime Valles Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New York City, NY Posts: 316	<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : I think this new panny is going to have to be seriously limited in features in order not to rival the varicam. -->>> I have a feeling the main differences between the two are: Varicam- 2/3" CCDs, interchangeable pro lenses, variable frame rate up to 60p, shoulder mount ENG style body, record to tape. HDX- 1/3" CCDs, fixed lens, 24p/30p/60i only, palmcorder DVX size body, record to P2 or Firewire stream only. To those that can afford it, the Varicam's features are well worth the price. For the rest of us, the HDX will seem like a miracle of cinematic engineering.

March 26th, 2005, 10:36 AM	#70
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Jan, your wetting my appetite and NAB still feels like a year away though it's next month. Jan I hope Panasonic is going to make enough of these to serve the demand? Jan does Panasonic do firmware upgrades on there Varicam system, if so will that be something that might be done on this new HD camcorder? Michael Pappas http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms <<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : <<<-- Originally posted by Jaime Valles : To those that can afford it, the Varicam's features are well worth the price. For the rest of us, the HDX will seem like a miracle of cinematic engineering. -->>> Jaime, you are a very bright man. The Varicam will always be the coolest HD camera, on a price performance basis. Are there cameras that do more, yes; do they cost more, yes. Point here is, will the little camera be used on a VariCam shoot, yes. I can see this being the camera in the underwater housing, it costs less to insure. Or the crash cam, or the crane cam. And then for the indy filmmaker that cannot afford the VariCam, it will be the main camera. We have worked very hard to put in as many features as is possible. I think many will agree. It is absolutely killling me that I can't say more, but soon, very soon. Best, Jan -->>>

March 27th, 2005, 01:22 PM	#71
Anders Holck Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 59	Jan, can you comment on if this will have 24p/30p/60i or 24p/25p/30p/50i/60i framerates, or said in another way, will it be international like Sony's Z1 and the Varicam, or regional like the DVX100a?

March 30th, 2005, 08:59 PM	#72
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	sorry I just dont' get it. I can get a 1 GIG SD memory card for $100!!! can someone not take them and build a "raid" for the p2 camera system? or better yet go out to a harddisk for HOURS and HOURS of HD footage? \\ what is it with this P2 stuff?

March 30th, 2005, 10:55 PM	#74
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	what is the cost of 4 1 gig cards in the p2 system?