HVX200 Pricing Speculation

Gary McClurg · February 16th, 2005, 09:50 AM

James,

No film is not dead. It's still the best for a feature. But until you stop assisting and stop loading those mags and start chasing the money.

Then you'll understand better why people are looking for something that'll give us a little bit of both worlds.

My partner has an Arri BL4, actually its a BL1 but he says it has all the internal parts of a BL4.

1000 feet of film = $350.00 (short ends, recans)
1000 feet of lab = $150.00
Transfer (3 to 1) = $300.00 (including 2 Beta tapes)
Total = $800.00 for ten minutes

x 10 to 1 shooting ratio $80,000

New Panny camera and 4 P2 cards lets say $15,000

Now if the P2 cards can hold 4 minutes of HD, that would be the same as shooting short ends.

Oh, and the four features that I've line produced have been shot on 35mm.

Andreas Fernbrant · February 16th, 2005, 11:03 AM

Gary, would you not say that 4 minutes shooting time is a big step backwards? We have been used to 60minutes for of shooting time for years, just because film have 10 minutes of shooting time due to the large format does not justify why we should accept a format that gives us 4 minutes just because panasonic want's to be cutting edge and bring pre mature tecnology to the table today. If they could offer us 60gig P2 cards for a reasonable price, lets say $200 I would buy into this trend directly, but clearly we are not there yet.

Gary McClurg · February 16th, 2005, 11:20 AM

I agree that is the nice thing about shooting ditigal longer tape time.

At first I was hoping it'd record to tape but the more I read I'm guessing it'll only shoot HD onto the P2 cards.

On Panny's site it look like a 8GB card is coming some time this year.

Yes, I like the idea of longer running times, no rollouts when an actor is hot, sometimes they get it on the next take some time it takes a few more takes to get back up to that level.

That is one thing I've said to people about HD, I think you can get better performances because you can have an actor pick it up while they're still in that moment.

I was kinda of bummed about 4 minutes also, been then I started thinking about shooting film and doing reloads, etc. so in some since it'd be the same. Now that doesn't mean I don't want longer cards.

And yes I'd like cheaper prices on the cards also. What money I can save on the cards I could put into something etc. That's the way I've always done productions.

I budget and then if I save money in one department I'd transfer it somewhere, etc.

Right now its all a guessing game. I think the camera will cost around $5,000 and the extra $5,000 floating around is for 2 p2 cards, and a docking station to download those cards.

But again that's a guess.

My first guess was that it'd still record HD to a tape. I thought it would have to, to complete with the Sony.

Now, like I wrote above reading and guessing what people who do know about the camera I'm not really sure.

Zack Birlew · February 16th, 2005, 11:20 AM

Andreas, that's like asking for terabyte hard drives today. It just can't be done yet. Though I do agree with you, Panasonic should be working on getting higher capacity P2 cards out faster than their current roadmap (with 130gb P2 cards coming out in 2008-2009). The 4 minute shooting time isn't what's gonna be the real hctib, it's going to be storing all of that on the go. Laptop's are good but may cause noise and buying another laptop hard drive will require service or technical work if you know what you're doing. Buying two or more of Panasonic's 60gb docking stations may be impractical as the price has yet to be determined. Though, buying more docking stations may be the best route for continuous shooting in my opinion.

Gary McClurg · February 16th, 2005, 11:35 AM

Also I didn't write about was extra storage.

Yes, some downside there.

I'm used to having a negative or a tape to go back to. So, I have to figure out how to store the footage on a hard drive so its safe.

You never know. I know someone who threw away all the negative after a film was disturbuted over seas after I told them to keep it and it looked like it was never going to be picked up in the US.

Then finally a US company wanted to release it on film in the US, but recut it. The only thing they had was the digibeta's used during editing.

It wouldn't have been my first choice but they could have gone to film from a new digibeta master.

But in the end it only got a DVD release

George Loch · February 16th, 2005, 12:19 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd

-----------------------------------------------
DV .............................. HDV
DVCPro / DVCAM ........ DVCPro HD / HDCAM
DVCPro 50 ................. HDCAM SR
>>>

Actually, in terms of bandwidth and quality it would be more accurate this way:

25mbps = DV/DVCPro/DVCAM/HDV
50mbps = DVCPRO50/Digibeta (digibeta is a bit more)
100mbps = DVCPROHD/HDCAM
440mbps = HDCAM SR

gl

Alexey Morvin · February 16th, 2005, 12:37 PM

4 minutes sounds like a joke. :(
Why they don't want to use cassettes or 2,5'' HDDs (80 Gb)?

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 16th, 2005, 12:45 PM

Unless Panasonic has an amazingly competitive pricing strategy for their media, somebody is going to find a way to hook up hard disks to that slot.

Actually. are there not IBM branded drives that even fit in CompactFlash cards? I reckon if P2 is a standard PC card interface there will be hard disks that can work in there and cost less than solid state. Much less.

Andreas Fernbrant · February 16th, 2005, 01:00 PM

Yes, but who want's to run around with a laptop and a extra hardrive on their shoots? All of this brings production time down a lot. Not to mention the additional cost to buy hardrives and laptops.

Jack Felis wrote:
Andreas, that's like asking for terabyte hard drives today. It just can't be done yet. ->

Exactly, so why do panasonic choose to do this now? They could have adapted their small DVCPRO-HD tapes really easy to work with the cam.

I hope they have 2 versions, one with tape and one with P2 cards, I know what I would buy hands down. Altough the digital format of P2 cards in theory is good, it's way to early to go there. If they could offer us extended times and cheap prices I would
buy into it. But for me, I could be out shooting run & gun style for weeks and have a huge need to be able to stay mobile without additional equipment. How about wildlife photographers? Stay out in the woods for days, shooting for hours just to get a glimse of what they are out there to shoot. This is a usless solution for all of them. Not to say ultra expensive.

The more I read and think about it, the more I want tape!

Additional steps, additional work and ADDITIONAL COSTS..

Why?.....

Pete Wilie · February 16th, 2005, 01:11 PM

I wonder why a storage solution like the JVC GY-DV5000U uses was not considered:
Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD

Alexey Morvin · February 16th, 2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Yes, but who want's to run around with a laptop and a extra hardrive on their shoots? All of this brings production time down a lot. Not to mention the additional cost to buy hardrives and laptops.

Laptop, what for?
Just 2,5'' HDDs - you can buy few HDDs (they're cheap today)...

I don't think 4 minutes flash cards is a good idea.

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 16th, 2005, 03:34 PM

I guess I didn't make my point very clear. I will try again: if the AJ-HDX100 and AJ-HDX400 have P2 slots, and if, as I have been led to believe, a P2 card is basically a PC-Card with four SD cards inside, then it will be perfectly feasible to pop a hard disk into that slot, just as it is possible to pop an IBM microdrive into my Cassiopeia's CompactFlash slot.

Perhaps that IS the Panasonic strategy and we will see P2 cards with IBM microdrives inside instead of the more robust solid state versions of the cards for professionals.

Of course, just like Sony makes you use their batteries with some camcorders, Panasonic could keep us from using anything but a Panasonic-branded mega-$ card. But I hope they don't do that.

Having a PC card interface on a good high resolution camera is the best possible solution. You could add solid state, hard disk or even wireless digital to the camera through a card. It's like applying the PC revolution to camcorders! There is great potetntial here and now is the time to ask Panasonic to let us use that card for more than just their propietary solid state memory.

Zack Birlew · February 16th, 2005, 03:43 PM

Well, then again guys, we don't know anything about the tape situation. Who knows? Maybe they do have DVCPROHD tapes but have P2 for convienience purposes when someone wants to shoot P2. Or, there could be NO tape drive at all. Yes, I agree, the whole 2.5" HDDs should have had their day with this camera and Panasonic could have just released an external 2.5" HDD to Firewire or USB 2.0 adapter for them when you need to dump everything. Which is exactly what they're doing with P2.

Also, where is everyone getting their P2 pricing information? I looked on Panasonic's website and couldn't find a single listing for P2 cards. Don't tell me we've been going at this based on the price of what four 1gb SD cards would cost! If that's so, then maybe Panasonic will price P2 cards to a more reasonable level, like $200 for a 4gb card instead of the $2000 mark I've been hearing about. Unless I totally missed the pricing on the website, can someone clear this up for me?

Gary McClurg · February 16th, 2005, 06:38 PM

Your right there is no pricing of P2 on the panny site.

Might have to look up and see what the cards costs for their HD P2 camera. Now I reading so much I can't remember if there is such and animal.

Chris Hurd · March 9th, 2005, 12:02 AM

Howdy from Texas,

The thread you're reading was split off from Kurth Bousman's original Panasonic AJ-HDX100 topic. Although it tends to wander around a bit, it tends to focus mostly on speculative pricing and a few other related things, and even includes the first signs of F.U.D. pollution. It even survived a hijacking attempt by myself and Greg Boston, where we dabble in the subject of riding mowers like some "King of the Hill" episode, and I'm pleased and grateful that it managed to bounce back from that. Anyhoo, the point is, there just ain't no pricing info to be had until Panasonic chooses to make the whole thing official, which will probably happen around NAB in April.

February 16th, 2005, 11:20 AM	#34
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	Andreas, that's like asking for terabyte hard drives today. It just can't be done yet. Though I do agree with you, Panasonic should be working on getting higher capacity P2 cards out faster than their current roadmap (with 130gb P2 cards coming out in 2008-2009). The 4 minute shooting time isn't what's gonna be the real hctib, it's going to be storing all of that on the go. Laptop's are good but may cause noise and buying another laptop hard drive will require service or technical work if you know what you're doing. Buying two or more of Panasonic's 60gb docking stations may be impractical as the price has yet to be determined. Though, buying more docking stations may be the best route for continuous shooting in my opinion. __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

February 16th, 2005, 12:19 PM	#36
George Loch Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: . Posts: 105	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd ----------------------------------------------- DV .............................. HDV DVCPro / DVCAM ........ DVCPro HD / HDCAM DVCPro 50 ................. HDCAM SR >>> Actually, in terms of bandwidth and quality it would be more accurate this way: 25mbps = DV/DVCPro/DVCAM/HDV 50mbps = DVCPRO50/Digibeta (digibeta is a bit more) 100mbps = DVCPROHD/HDCAM 440mbps = HDCAM SR gl __________________ http://www.motoxpress.com

February 16th, 2005, 12:45 PM	#38
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Unless Panasonic has an amazingly competitive pricing strategy for their media, somebody is going to find a way to hook up hard disks to that slot. Actually. are there not IBM branded drives that even fit in CompactFlash cards? I reckon if P2 is a standard PC card interface there will be hard disks that can work in there and cost less than solid state. Much less. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 16th, 2005, 01:11 PM	#40
Pete Wilie Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 331	Why Not Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD I wonder why a storage solution like the JVC GY-DV5000U uses was not considered: Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD

February 16th, 2005, 03:34 PM	#42
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	I guess I didn't make my point very clear. I will try again: if the AJ-HDX100 and AJ-HDX400 have P2 slots, and if, as I have been led to believe, a P2 card is basically a PC-Card with four SD cards inside, then it will be perfectly feasible to pop a hard disk into that slot, just as it is possible to pop an IBM microdrive into my Cassiopeia's CompactFlash slot. Perhaps that IS the Panasonic strategy and we will see P2 cards with IBM microdrives inside instead of the more robust solid state versions of the cards for professionals. Of course, just like Sony makes you use their batteries with some camcorders, Panasonic could keep us from using anything but a Panasonic-branded mega-$ card. But I hope they don't do that. Having a PC card interface on a good high resolution camera is the best possible solution. You could add solid state, hard disk or even wireless digital to the camera through a card. It's like applying the PC revolution to camcorders! There is great potetntial here and now is the time to ask Panasonic to let us use that card for more than just their propietary solid state memory. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 16th, 2005, 09:50 AM	#31
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	James, No film is not dead. It's still the best for a feature. But until you stop assisting and stop loading those mags and start chasing the money. Then you'll understand better why people are looking for something that'll give us a little bit of both worlds. My partner has an Arri BL4, actually its a BL1 but he says it has all the internal parts of a BL4. 1000 feet of film = $350.00 (short ends, recans) 1000 feet of lab = $150.00 Transfer (3 to 1) = $300.00 (including 2 Beta tapes) Total = $800.00 for ten minutes x 10 to 1 shooting ratio $80,000 New Panny camera and 4 P2 cards lets say $15,000 Now if the P2 cards can hold 4 minutes of HD, that would be the same as shooting short ends. Oh, and the four features that I've line produced have been shot on 35mm.

February 16th, 2005, 11:03 AM	#32
Andreas Fernbrant Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sweden - Helsingborg Posts: 283	Gary, would you not say that 4 minutes shooting time is a big step backwards? We have been used to 60minutes for of shooting time for years, just because film have 10 minutes of shooting time due to the large format does not justify why we should accept a format that gives us 4 minutes just because panasonic want's to be cutting edge and bring pre mature tecnology to the table today. If they could offer us 60gig P2 cards for a reasonable price, lets say $200 I would buy into this trend directly, but clearly we are not there yet.

February 16th, 2005, 11:35 AM	#35
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	Also I didn't write about was extra storage. Yes, some downside there. I'm used to having a negative or a tape to go back to. So, I have to figure out how to store the footage on a hard drive so its safe. You never know. I know someone who threw away all the negative after a film was disturbuted over seas after I told them to keep it and it looked like it was never going to be picked up in the US. Then finally a US company wanted to release it on film in the US, but recut it. The only thing they had was the digibeta's used during editing. It wouldn't have been my first choice but they could have gone to film from a new digibeta master. But in the end it only got a DVD release

February 16th, 2005, 12:37 PM	#37
Alexey Morvin New Boot Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 16	4 minutes sounds like a joke. :( Why they don't want to use cassettes or 2,5'' HDDs (80 Gb)?

February 16th, 2005, 01:00 PM	#39
Andreas Fernbrant Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sweden - Helsingborg Posts: 283	Yes, but who want's to run around with a laptop and a extra hardrive on their shoots? All of this brings production time down a lot. Not to mention the additional cost to buy hardrives and laptops. Jack Felis wrote: Andreas, that's like asking for terabyte hard drives today. It just can't be done yet. -> Exactly, so why do panasonic choose to do this now? They could have adapted their small DVCPRO-HD tapes really easy to work with the cam. I hope they have 2 versions, one with tape and one with P2 cards, I know what I would buy hands down. Altough the digital format of P2 cards in theory is good, it's way to early to go there. If they could offer us extended times and cheap prices I would buy into it. But for me, I could be out shooting run & gun style for weeks and have a huge need to be able to stay mobile without additional equipment. How about wildlife photographers? Stay out in the woods for days, shooting for hours just to get a glimse of what they are out there to shoot. This is a usless solution for all of them. Not to say ultra expensive. The more I read and think about it, the more I want tape! Additional steps, additional work and ADDITIONAL COSTS.. Why?.....

February 16th, 2005, 03:43 PM	#43
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	Well, then again guys, we don't know anything about the tape situation. Who knows? Maybe they do have DVCPROHD tapes but have P2 for convienience purposes when someone wants to shoot P2. Or, there could be NO tape drive at all. Yes, I agree, the whole 2.5" HDDs should have had their day with this camera and Panasonic could have just released an external 2.5" HDD to Firewire or USB 2.0 adapter for them when you need to dump everything. Which is exactly what they're doing with P2. Also, where is everyone getting their P2 pricing information? I looked on Panasonic's website and couldn't find a single listing for P2 cards. Don't tell me we've been going at this based on the price of what four 1gb SD cards would cost! If that's so, then maybe Panasonic will price P2 cards to a more reasonable level, like $200 for a 4gb card instead of the $2000 mark I've been hearing about. Unless I totally missed the pricing on the website, can someone clear this up for me? __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

February 16th, 2005, 06:38 PM	#44
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	Your right there is no pricing of P2 on the panny site. Might have to look up and see what the cards costs for their HD P2 camera. Now I reading so much I can't remember if there is such and animal.

March 9th, 2005, 12:02 AM	#45
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Howdy from Texas, The thread you're reading was split off from Kurth Bousman's original Panasonic AJ-HDX100 topic. Although it tends to wander around a bit, it tends to focus mostly on speculative pricing and a few other related things, and even includes the first signs of F.U.D. pollution. It even survived a hijacking attempt by myself and Greg Boston, where we dabble in the subject of riding mowers like some "King of the Hill" episode, and I'm pleased and grateful that it managed to bounce back from that. Anyhoo, the point is, there just ain't no pricing info to be had until Panasonic chooses to make the whole thing official, which will probably happen around NAB in April. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!