HVX200 Pricing Speculation

Barry Green · February 13th, 2005, 03:12 PM

Quote:

One thing doesn't make sense - why would panasonic shoot themselves in the foot as far as the sdx900 is concerned ?

Er... for the same reason that Mercedes shoots themselves in the foot by producing the $25,000 supercharged C230 to cannibalize sales of the $180,000 CL265. Same reason Dodge shoots themselves in the foot by producing a $20,000 Neon SRT4 to cannibalize sales of the $85,000 Viper.

In other words, the cameras don't compete with each other at all. They're entirely different worlds. Someone shopping for a Viper isn't going to say "well, hold on a minute, that Neon R/T is $65,000 less and just about as fast..." I mean, there's just no comparison. SDX is a big 2/3 shoulder-mount camera with big tape loads, interchangeable lenses, ability to be controlled by a CCU, all sorts of things that a little handheld camera will not be, and capable of all sorts of things that the handheld camera won't be capable of. Jan's already pointed out that the SDX had no negative impact on VariCam sales, in fact both product lines are selling stronger than expected. And they expect that the new camera will lead to *more* high-end camera sales, not less, as people get integrated into the P2/24p world.

Kurth Bousman · February 13th, 2005, 06:13 PM

Hi Barry - well , except one thing - the 900 is sd and the new cam is hd- and believe me , people shopping always look for the best deal that gets them the closest to their dream ideal- if you save 25k and only loose alittle (or maybe none) , then producers are always going for the cheaper product. If this weren't the case then the pd150/170 wouldn't have taken over the news market like it did. However the truth might be closer to a new release of a shoulder hd camera based on the 900s' bigger ccd and better lenses. If not , I believe these cams like the fx-1/z1 and the new panasonic will take on a life of their own, much the same as the pd150/170 did. Cameras aren't cars- I don't get the analogy. You can't even make a comparison between the video and the digital still market. I read the reports of the fx-1 being projected on a 60 foot screen- and so did every video/film producer in the world , and I hear them all saying " if we can get by with the z1..... "
Charles - getting off topic , have you seen the new marantz compact flash recorder coming out soon - I believe it's PMD-660 for $500 -it looks like the perfect indie double system recorder- as small as a walkman with xlr input- Kurth

Barry Green · February 13th, 2005, 11:05 PM

The cameras 'n' cars comparison was only to illustrate that just as car manufacturers have different "tiers" of product that cater to different levels of customers, so do camera manufacturers.

For example, the DVX is a great little camera, but it ain't no SDX900. And there are several shoots where you simply CANNOT do with a DVX what you could with an SDX. I've got a friend here who produces a live multicamera shoot of a major dance studio's recital. He drags out three old BetaSP cameras and a set of CCU's and does a live-switching version of the event. He could not do this on DVX's -- the lens doesn't have anywhere near the reach necessary, and it doesn't have any provision for remote CCU control.

Another thing people ask about all the time is slaving TC... you just can't do that with the mini cameras, they don't have TC IN/TC OUT jacks. Yes you can start them off in free-run, but that's not frame-accurate and doesn't hold frame-accurate sync through the day.

I've got another friend who shoots concerts for one of the hotels here. They position him in the back of the room. He has to use a 1/2" camera with a 33x zoom lens (and an optical doubler) for a total of 66x magnification in order to be able to get a head 'n' shoulders shot of the performers. You simply can't get that kind of reach on one of the little cams.

There are many shooting circumstances where the bigger cams have decided advantages and things that they can do that the little cams cannot.

Obviously if the little camera does everything that a producer needs, they would consider buying it instead of the big camera. But the big cameras do things the little cameras cannot. There are things producers need that small cameras cannot deliver. There will always still be a market for the big cameras. Maybe a smaller market, true... but if the reason the market is shrinking is because they're cannibalizing their own market with a new product introduction, and gaining overall market share from the competition at the same time, I don't think they'd mind it one bit.

Pete Bauer · February 14th, 2005, 03:10 PM

This announcement makes me wonder all the more if HDV really is the "Digital8" of HiDef...in other words an interim, short-lived format? Or perhaps within the next couple of years HDV will supplant miniDV as entry level, and anyone "prosumer" or pro will be shooting at what we now think of as true HD?

Yeah, plenty of indies and prosumers will drop near to $10G...even if they despise suburbia-based Hummers! :-) I got impatient waiting for HDV and ended up dropping around $6000 for a STANDARD DEFINITION XL2 plus 3x lens less than 2 years after buying a GL2 with plenty of accessories. If I can sell out and then chip in another $3-4G to step up to full HD this summer, darn straight that I'll do it in a heartbeat. (Although it would be even nicer if Canon had a competing XL-HD body to keep the XL's upgrade path to "prosumer HD" in the same price league as buying the competition).

Of course, my mainstream P4 3GHz system probably will choke to death trying to process a 100mb/sec HD file...

Barry Green · February 14th, 2005, 08:17 PM

I don't know what the system specs will need to be to edit DVCPRO-HD seamlessly, but there are already editors available now that can do it. Apple's FCP-HD supports DVCPRO-HD, and on the PC, Avid Express Pro HD edits DVCPRO-HD natively. Avid has a minimum system requirement of a 2.4GHz Zeon or a 1.8GHz P4. So your 3GHz system may be plenty capable of handling it!

Greg Boston · February 14th, 2005, 09:38 PM

Just to add to what Barry said about camera features differentiating the big iron from the little iron. During a phone conversation with Chris H. he mentioned that the robust construction and guarantee to work is also a pricing factor. I was very surprised at just how short the warranty is on the XL-2 tape mechanism.

It was once explained to me while shopping for a lawn tractor. The John Deere might have the same hp engine and cutting deck width as the less expensive brands, but it will be cutting grass long after the other one is laying in the scrap heap somewhere.

Murph,

I have to echo what Chris said. At $10k, you'd better be making money with your camera somehow so it will pay for itself. Even a wedding videographer on the lower rungs could pay for the camera after 5 or 6 outings. Maybe less, because they could possibly extract a premium for shooting a higher quality image for the client.

-gb-

Chris Hurd · February 14th, 2005, 11:03 PM

That goes for Cub Cadets too, Greg. You get what you pay for!

Greg Boston · February 15th, 2005, 01:35 AM

Yup Chris...there's an old cub cadet at the in-law's lake house. Every spring we...change the oil, charge the battery, put in fresh gasoline, it starts up, and we're mowing in no time. Ya just can't tear one of those up without really trying.;)

-gb-

Chris Hendrick · February 15th, 2005, 08:31 AM

Get ready to shell out $4k for tape as well since this is P2

Chris Hurd · February 15th, 2005, 09:01 AM

For Pete Bauer:

<< makes me wonder if HDV really is the "Digital8" of HiDef...in other words an interim, short-lived format? >>

I don't know, I see it more along the lines of HDV being the DV of High Definition. And the funny thing about Digital 8 is that it still refuses to die. Strictly consumer, sure, but it's been around for how long now?

This probably is not a very accurate comparison, but if you asked me to rank formats with SD compared to HD, it would go something like this:

Standard Definition --- High Definition
-----------------------------------------------
DV .............................. HDV
DVCPro / DVCAM ........ DVCPro HD / HDCAM
DVCPro 50 ................. HDCAM SR

<< Or perhaps within the next couple of years HDV will supplant miniDV as entry level, and anyone "prosumer" or pro will be shooting at what we now think of as true HD? >>

Excellent question!

;-)

Alexey Morvin · February 15th, 2005, 09:03 AM

Quote:

I'd really like to know the budgets of everyone here. That seems like a great topic! My budget barely called for the $5000 Z1 - I had to sell some gear to get it. I'm seriously trying to think who can justify a $10,000 video camera....no indie filmmaker can afford that! If you are a *working* videographer...maybe.

I'll buy it even for $10000 if it will not be MPEG2 25 Mbps camcorder like Sony's first camcorder.
Buy the way, what resolution camcorder will have? 720p or 1080p?

And what is P2?

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 15th, 2005, 09:15 AM

>Buy the way, what resolution camcorder
> will have? 720p or 1080p?

The AJ-HDX100 will do 720p, that should be 1280x720 pixels. The AJ-HDX400 will do 1080i, probably 1280x1080 with 4:2:2 color sampling. It seems at least one of the cams will do 24p@40Mbps and 60p@100 Mbps.

> And what is P2?

P2 is a Panasonic branded PC-card with internal non-volatile soid state memory, much like the SD, Flash, Memory Stick and other such media used with today's digital photo cameras. Because the PC-card form factor and interfaces are used, the card can be mounted on a laptop. Panasonic has also announced a portable 60 GByte hard disk with a card slot that can automatically copy the contents of P2 cards without the need to lug around a laptop. Nice idea.

Alexey Morvin · February 15th, 2005, 10:07 AM

720p60 is great! Do you know when (approx.) people will be able to buy camcorder?

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 15th, 2005, 10:19 AM

Nobody does. Well nobody outside Panasonic, that is. But presumably April's NAB would be an interesting time for Panny to unveil the camera.

James Darren · February 16th, 2005, 09:00 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Struthers : Well, better audio on the dvx100a AND the soon to be announced cam

Better video on the soon to be announced cam.....

Of course, if you're shooting a flick, super16mm blows them both away... -->>>

good pont Michael.... its amazing how many people on internet forums state "film is dead now since Sony & Panasonic have announced these new HD cameras" but have any of these people actually worked on a feature film set? all of my assisting work over the next 12 months so far is all being shot on Super 16 (Arri SR3's) & 2 of them will be on digibeta. especially with all this confusion over outputs, formats & editing solutions with HD i'm finding here in my part of the world, film is even more desirable.

Dont get me wrong, HD is a good format. i'm even going to buy either a FX1 or Z1 pretty soon I think for my personal work.... but just because a manufacturer releases a new camera with lots of hype it doesnt mean it'll replace film...

plus i love it when i get the job of loading those 400foot mags all day long.....

February 14th, 2005, 03:10 PM	#19
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	This announcement makes me wonder all the more if HDV really is the "Digital8" of HiDef...in other words an interim, short-lived format? Or perhaps within the next couple of years HDV will supplant miniDV as entry level, and anyone "prosumer" or pro will be shooting at what we now think of as true HD? Yeah, plenty of indies and prosumers will drop near to $10G...even if they despise suburbia-based Hummers! :-) I got impatient waiting for HDV and ended up dropping around $6000 for a STANDARD DEFINITION XL2 plus 3x lens less than 2 years after buying a GL2 with plenty of accessories. If I can sell out and then chip in another $3-4G to step up to full HD this summer, darn straight that I'll do it in a heartbeat. (Although it would be even nicer if Canon had a competing XL-HD body to keep the XL's upgrade path to "prosumer HD" in the same price league as buying the competition). Of course, my mainstream P4 3GHz system probably will choke to death trying to process a 100mb/sec HD file... __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

February 14th, 2005, 11:03 PM	#22
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	That goes for Cub Cadets too, Greg. You get what you pay for! __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 15th, 2005, 09:01 AM	#25
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	For Pete Bauer: << makes me wonder if HDV really is the "Digital8" of HiDef...in other words an interim, short-lived format? >> I don't know, I see it more along the lines of HDV being the DV of High Definition. And the funny thing about Digital 8 is that it still refuses to die. Strictly consumer, sure, but it's been around for how long now? This probably is not a very accurate comparison, but if you asked me to rank formats with SD compared to HD, it would go something like this: Standard Definition --- High Definition ----------------------------------------------- DV .............................. HDV DVCPro / DVCAM ........ DVCPro HD / HDCAM DVCPro 50 ................. HDCAM SR << Or perhaps within the next couple of years HDV will supplant miniDV as entry level, and anyone "prosumer" or pro will be shooting at what we now think of as true HD? >> Excellent question! ;-) __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 15th, 2005, 09:15 AM	#27
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	>Buy the way, what resolution camcorder > will have? 720p or 1080p? The AJ-HDX100 will do 720p, that should be 1280x720 pixels. The AJ-HDX400 will do 1080i, probably 1280x1080 with 4:2:2 color sampling. It seems at least one of the cams will do 24p@40Mbps and 60p@100 Mbps. > And what is P2? P2 is a Panasonic branded PC-card with internal non-volatile soid state memory, much like the SD, Flash, Memory Stick and other such media used with today's digital photo cameras. Because the PC-card form factor and interfaces are used, the card can be mounted on a laptop. Panasonic has also announced a portable 60 GByte hard disk with a card slot that can automatically copy the contents of P2 cards without the need to lug around a laptop. Nice idea. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 15th, 2005, 10:19 AM	#29
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Nobody does. Well nobody outside Panasonic, that is. But presumably April's NAB would be an interesting time for Panny to unveil the camera. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 13th, 2005, 06:13 PM	#17
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	Hi Barry - well , except one thing - the 900 is sd and the new cam is hd- and believe me , people shopping always look for the best deal that gets them the closest to their dream ideal- if you save 25k and only loose alittle (or maybe none) , then producers are always going for the cheaper product. If this weren't the case then the pd150/170 wouldn't have taken over the news market like it did. However the truth might be closer to a new release of a shoulder hd camera based on the 900s' bigger ccd and better lenses. If not , I believe these cams like the fx-1/z1 and the new panasonic will take on a life of their own, much the same as the pd150/170 did. Cameras aren't cars- I don't get the analogy. You can't even make a comparison between the video and the digital still market. I read the reports of the fx-1 being projected on a 60 foot screen- and so did every video/film producer in the world , and I hear them all saying " if we can get by with the z1..... " Charles - getting off topic , have you seen the new marantz compact flash recorder coming out soon - I believe it's PMD-660 for $500 -it looks like the perfect indie double system recorder- as small as a walkman with xlr input- Kurth

February 13th, 2005, 11:05 PM	#18
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The cameras 'n' cars comparison was only to illustrate that just as car manufacturers have different "tiers" of product that cater to different levels of customers, so do camera manufacturers. For example, the DVX is a great little camera, but it ain't no SDX900. And there are several shoots where you simply CANNOT do with a DVX what you could with an SDX. I've got a friend here who produces a live multicamera shoot of a major dance studio's recital. He drags out three old BetaSP cameras and a set of CCU's and does a live-switching version of the event. He could not do this on DVX's -- the lens doesn't have anywhere near the reach necessary, and it doesn't have any provision for remote CCU control. Another thing people ask about all the time is slaving TC... you just can't do that with the mini cameras, they don't have TC IN/TC OUT jacks. Yes you can start them off in free-run, but that's not frame-accurate and doesn't hold frame-accurate sync through the day. I've got another friend who shoots concerts for one of the hotels here. They position him in the back of the room. He has to use a 1/2" camera with a 33x zoom lens (and an optical doubler) for a total of 66x magnification in order to be able to get a head 'n' shoulders shot of the performers. You simply can't get that kind of reach on one of the little cams. There are many shooting circumstances where the bigger cams have decided advantages and things that they can do that the little cams cannot. Obviously if the little camera does everything that a producer needs, they would consider buying it instead of the big camera. But the big cameras do things the little cameras cannot. There are things producers need that small cameras cannot deliver. There will always still be a market for the big cameras. Maybe a smaller market, true... but if the reason the market is shrinking is because they're cannibalizing their own market with a new product introduction, and gaining overall market share from the competition at the same time, I don't think they'd mind it one bit.

February 14th, 2005, 08:17 PM	#20
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I don't know what the system specs will need to be to edit DVCPRO-HD seamlessly, but there are already editors available now that can do it. Apple's FCP-HD supports DVCPRO-HD, and on the PC, Avid Express Pro HD edits DVCPRO-HD natively. Avid has a minimum system requirement of a 2.4GHz Zeon or a 1.8GHz P4. So your 3GHz system may be plenty capable of handling it!

February 14th, 2005, 09:38 PM	#21
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Just to add to what Barry said about camera features differentiating the big iron from the little iron. During a phone conversation with Chris H. he mentioned that the robust construction and guarantee to work is also a pricing factor. I was very surprised at just how short the warranty is on the XL-2 tape mechanism. It was once explained to me while shopping for a lawn tractor. The John Deere might have the same hp engine and cutting deck width as the less expensive brands, but it will be cutting grass long after the other one is laying in the scrap heap somewhere. Murph, I have to echo what Chris said. At $10k, you'd better be making money with your camera somehow so it will pay for itself. Even a wedding videographer on the lower rungs could pay for the camera after 5 or 6 outings. Maybe less, because they could possibly extract a premium for shooting a higher quality image for the client. -gb-

February 15th, 2005, 01:35 AM	#23
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Yup Chris...there's an old cub cadet at the in-law's lake house. Every spring we...change the oil, charge the battery, put in fresh gasoline, it starts up, and we're mowing in no time. Ya just can't tear one of those up without really trying.;) -gb-

February 15th, 2005, 08:31 AM	#24
Chris Hendrick New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NY Posts: 21	Get ready to shell out $4k for tape as well since this is P2

February 15th, 2005, 10:07 AM	#28
Alexey Morvin New Boot Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 16	720p60 is great! Do you know when (approx.) people will be able to buy camcorder?

February 16th, 2005, 09:00 AM	#30
James Darren Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 235	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Struthers : Well, better audio on the dvx100a AND the soon to be announced cam Better video on the soon to be announced cam..... Of course, if you're shooting a flick, super16mm blows them both away... -->>> good pont Michael.... its amazing how many people on internet forums state "film is dead now since Sony & Panasonic have announced these new HD cameras" but have any of these people actually worked on a feature film set? all of my assisting work over the next 12 months so far is all being shot on Super 16 (Arri SR3's) & 2 of them will be on digibeta. especially with all this confusion over outputs, formats & editing solutions with HD i'm finding here in my part of the world, film is even more desirable. Dont get me wrong, HD is a good format. i'm even going to buy either a FX1 or Z1 pretty soon I think for my personal work.... but just because a manufacturer releases a new camera with lots of hype it doesnt mean it'll replace film... plus i love it when i get the job of loading those 400foot mags all day long.....